then in 1999, it all clicked with RSS, and that gave us a way, we had ways, by the way, to find the updates on blogs before that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We had a site called weblogs.com, and it would go looking around the blogosphere, had a list. There weren&#8217;t that many blogs, okay. So it would look at all of them, see if they updated, and if they updated it would put it at the top of the list. And so bloggers were just reloading that page all day long. And it worked. You still had to find the new post, but that wasn&#8217;t too hard because they were at the top of the page, right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then after that, with Netscape, we got RSS going. And that led to a whole other generation of that kind of stuff. We had it, it was going. But what killed it. Killed is too strong a word. What put a limit on it, what said that what you described would happen is that, do you remember the .com boom, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>All of a sudden it wasn&#8217;t just a place for idealists to screw around and try out new ideas and everything. It was a place to come and get rich, and so it attracted all those people who wanted to get rich. That&#8217;s all they wanted. They didn&#8217;t care about what they had to do to get rich, and that attracted the professional investors, the venture capitalists. They want to get rich, it&#8217;s totally okay to do whatever they have to do to get rich. It just simply, it is their business to get rich, and it&#8217;s hard to blame them for that. And then, here&#8217;s the key point, they wouldn&#8217;t work with each other.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:50] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> They would not work with each other. And I just wrote a piece this morning, on my blog, and it said in retrospect, it was a retrospective thing about RSS, because that&#8217;s becoming an issue again, and it said what RSS needed was love. It needed to be loved and nurtured, and fed and taken care of, and the users had to be given features that were collective across all the products. So that if you wanted to subscribe to a feed, you didn&#8217;t have to memorize a complicated process, involving pasting URLs or reading the HTML source, or all the crazy stuff that became, until Twitter, what choice was there, right? So people had to do it, but it was tremendous weakness.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Twitter came in and just completely blew it out. Because in Twitter subscribing was a single click. And we&#8217;re gonna hit that again now. If I&#8217;m successful in what I do, we&#8217;re gonna hit it again, and we&#8217;re gonna have to answer that question differently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I was just gonna say, so many of the underpinnings that could have made the internet into a different place never went away, they just got ignored. Maybe that&#8217;s the wrong word, but they just got forgotten about. And so we wholeheartedly subscribed to X, formally Twitter. We wholeheartedly jumped in on Facebook, because they offered this amazing level of convenience. And of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it&#8217;s easy to see how maybe that was a catastrophic failure, but the time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:18] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I have no regrets about that either, Twitter was amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It was so revolutionary, you could suddenly connect with people that you&#8217;d lost touch with many years ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:26] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There you go. You put your finger right on it. It wasn&#8217;t that Twitter was so great. It&#8217;s that look at all the people. One of the first experiences I had on Twitter that really, really showed me what the difference is, is that there was just this random guy. I would meet him. We had our own community too, by the way. And so we would go to conferences and, I watched the WordCamp conference from afar, right? And I said, oh, I know all those people. Because in our community we had people like that. Only there only about 30 years younger than I was, than we were, but I recognize it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And, meet somebody at a conference that&#8217;s, now I know what he&#8217;s doing with his family. I know what his sports are, who his team is, what&#8217;s the weather like where they live. And how does he describe it? There&#8217;s all these inputs that you simply don&#8217;t get from seeing somebody couple of times a year. It&#8217;s nice and everything, but this was a different thing altogether.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I still use Facebook. I don&#8217;t use Twitter very much anymore. But, I still have my account. I didn&#8217;t delete it. But I use Facebook. I will never stop using Facebook because my friends from childhood are there. Where am I gonna get new friends from childhood? That&#8217;s not happening, right. They have their advantages. But they&#8217;re a really good example of people that refuse to do anything to help anything other than their mission to make more money. I&#8217;ve had these conversations with executives at Facebook, and we&#8217;ve had a couple of, fits and starts a couple of them, twice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They were gonna add RSS support in and out, to Facebook. Kind of like what they&#8217;re doing with Threads and ActivityPub, right? Or the Fediverse. Yeah, I&#8217;m trying to forget that because I don&#8217;t believe in it, to be honest with you, but I do believe in Mastodon. I think that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re really doing here. And I think they blow a lot of smoke at these things, and they, make them seem like, they shouldn&#8217;t make them appear to be more than they are because we need to have both of those things. There&#8217;s no reason we can&#8217;t have both, but that means you have to be a little bit altruistic to use that word. You may feel like you&#8217;re being an altruist, but then look at the times we live in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the United States, we are very worried about what&#8217;s coming or what&#8217;s here right now. And we&#8217;re all asking, what can we do? What can we do? One of the things you can do is let down, open up to your inner altruist, start doing things that aren&#8217;t just about putting food on the table or getting ahead in your career.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do things that make connecting with other people a lot easier, and more free. Because those services are now owned by people that go to dinner with the government of the United States. You&#8217;ve never seen a more clear picture of what we&#8217;re up against. You think that somebody from the White House calls Mark Zuckerberg and says, get Dave Winer off of Facebook. I guarantee you I&#8217;m off Facebook in 10 seconds. That&#8217;s who we are, depending on their honor, I think that&#8217;s a really bad bet. We&#8217;re all gonna have that choice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And at the same time, people who know how to work with WordPress are gonna have an amazing advantage, because I see WordPress as being comparable to the Mastodon server and the Bluesky server, and Bluesky doesn&#8217;t give you a server to install yet, but Mastodon does. And, I didn&#8217;t install it. I had a friend because I tried and I couldn&#8217;t get it to go. That is what it&#8217;s gonna take. And WordPress is a lot easier to install, and it&#8217;s a lot more mature, and it really works and the APIs aren&#8217;t gonna break. So we got a much better foundation to build on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Going back to what you said a moment ago about, it&#8217;s not either or. What we&#8217;re imagining here, I think is, you keep your Facebook, and you keep your X, and all of those things can go. Fine, carry on using those, but there&#8217;s an alternative, which many people may prefer. There&#8217;s a whole kind of ethos behind that, and a whole philosophy behind that. But underpinning it all, things like Mastodon, and potentially WordPress, and we&#8217;ll get into that, are a bunch of APIs and protocols and things like that, many of which you were very much involved in the creation of things like RSS, and thank you for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:38] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> More altruism there, huh?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> This entire whole podcast thing sits right on top of it. It feels like we&#8217;re going back to those things to try and, not compete, but be alongside of these other walled gardens, if you like.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:51] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Oh, I think we&#8217;re competing. I&#8217;m not scared of competition. Let&#8217;s do it. There will be differences, however. There will be. There&#8217;ll be things that you can do in this world that you couldn&#8217;t do over there. But the opposite is true as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the thing that we&#8217;re gonna do, if we&#8217;re successful, is we&#8217;re gonna influence those networks. And we&#8217;re going to get them to support markdown. That&#8217;s very specific. Just let me put markdown in my posts on Bluesky and get rid of the character limits and let me edit. And then we&#8217;re, we&#8217;re fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You have to support inbound RSS as well, not just outbound. I have to be able to stay in my space, and contribute, and write, and have anybody read it wherever they are. That&#8217;s it. It&#8217;s saying basically, let&#8217;s actually live up to the promise of the web. And that&#8217;s what the web promised. And if you&#8217;re confident in your users will find value in your network, and there&#8217;s no reason they won&#8217;t. I&#8217;m talking about Bluesky and Mastodon, then why wouldn&#8217;t you do it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think then we&#8217;ve outed you. If you don&#8217;t want to do it. Okay, they don&#8217;t want to do it now because they don&#8217;t see it as a way of attracting new users, or keeping the users they have. They don&#8217;t see it that way because it&#8217;s true. It&#8217;s not, and that&#8217;s what we have to do. We have to make it that. They have to be hearing it all the time. You have to support markdown, that&#8217;s what Textcasting was all about. I think markdown is the mp3 of text. We did podcasting too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That was a fall out of all this stuff. I want to do radio. I love radio. I always have. And I always thought at some point I&#8217;m gonna do audio blogs. That&#8217;s what I was doing, getting ready to do that. And there we were, and one thing led to another and did I ever think about using something other than mp3? That would be crazy. It was a gift. They gave me the answer. Of course I&#8217;m going to use mp3. Why would I screw around with that? We&#8217;re gonna make it just as obvious that the other networks, if they&#8217;re gonna pretend to deal with text, they have to support a basic set of features, which are simply defined by the web. That&#8217;s it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And WordPress does all that. WordPress documents are web documents, and that&#8217;s super important. That&#8217;s everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like in the last few months you&#8217;ve very much planted a flag in the sand and it feels like you&#8217;ve committed to following through on the promise that we&#8217;re about to get into. And the underpinnings of it, I&#8217;m gonna link in the show notes to this, so you want to head to wptavern.com, search for the episode with Dave Winer, and in there will be a whole list of things. Anything that discuss, I&#8217;ll basically link to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But there&#8217;s a couple of pieces which Dave has penned. One of them was in 2024, November, 2024, called Textcasting. And the URL for that is textcasting.org, and we&#8217;ll go into that in a minute. But then much more recently over on scripting.com, published on 28th of August, 2025, so very recently, was a piece which kind of built a top of that called Think Differently About WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m gonna return to the Textcasting one &#8217;cause this feels like the foundational technological underpinnings of what you are proposing here, this thing which would be a competitor to all of these walled gardens. It sits outside of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:14] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s more of a, okay, for me, this is when I was planning this product. I hadn&#8217;t even begun to develop it yet. But I wanted to write down in one place, these are all the things we&#8217;re gonna do. And that&#8217;s it. That&#8217;s all it was. I keep going on and on about all the different things that I wanted that I wasn&#8217;t getting, as a writer. I am a writer and I feel like Twitter was the original one, said you can&#8217;t have all your writing tools. It&#8217;s like I&#8217;m designing a guitar. And I&#8217;m saying, you can have three strings if you want. You can play music on three strings, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The ultimate insult is the people who made this decision are not guitar players. They&#8217;re not musicians. They don&#8217;t have the slightest clue what the f they&#8217;re doing, and I&#8217;ve been told that even getting a new generation of products isn&#8217;t gonna solve this problem, because they are just as clueless about what writers need. And so at least I feel like upfront I ought to tell them exactly what I want from them. And that&#8217;s what textcasting.org is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when we give it to the people, they can say, they might say, why didn&#8217;t you tell us that&#8217;s all you want? Yeah, look at textcasting.org, and look at the creation date. I was very clear about what I wanted, but understand that I needed this for myself as the requirements document for the product I was making. I&#8217;m a blogger, so when I write a requirements document, I put it in the public, because that&#8217;s what bloggers do. It is just the knee jerk. I do write some private documents, I do, it&#8217;s true. But my impulse is to write them publicly. So that&#8217;s really all that it is. It&#8217;s just saying, this is what we&#8217;re gonna do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So right at the top, the goal is very simply encapsulated and it goes like this. It&#8217;s easy to get in your head and parse. Interop between social media apps based on the features writers needs, specifically the services of the social web, and there&#8217;s a link there, support these basic features.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then you go on to describe the ethics behind the movement is. But then you list out the things that you would like as a writer. It&#8217;s surprisingly a short list. There&#8217;s only six things, titles, optional. Links, de rigueur, you&#8217;ve gotta have links. Simple styling, bold, italics, that&#8217;s probably enough. Enclosures making it possible to do other things like, I don&#8217;t know, podcasting and things like that. Unlimited length, that&#8217;s the big differentiator, isn&#8217;t it? Because more or less all the platforms that have gained success have stifled that in some way. And then the, this is important, I think maybe this is the bit that I think is most enjoyable, editable. Go back, modify it because why not? You wrote it, it&#8217;s yours. And markdown. That basically is textcasting encapsulated in just a few sentences. I&#8217;ve probably missed a lot of the nuance there, but that&#8217;s kind of how I see it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:04] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, I don&#8217;t think so. Actually. Notice what&#8217;s not there? You&#8217;ll kick yourself. Comments. I don&#8217;t give a damn about comments.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Presumably the comments could be handled elsewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:15] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Absolutely, and I have a new idea for how comments should work. I wrote that up. I did a podcast about that, I think it was yesterday or the day before. I&#8217;ve had this design for many years, but I think there&#8217;s a way around all the abuse, and all the spamming that goes on these networks. I think it&#8217;s time for another look, first of all. I mean, I had a look, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But, second of all, it&#8217;s time to open it up so everybody can play in this game so we can try out lots of different ways of doing it. Which by the way is also part of what I&#8217;m doing. I&#8217;m making a, the thing Wordland. If you go to wordland.social. Go there and try it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s there. It works with your WordPress sites. And so you might think, okay, it is actually my business to make a new writing tool for WordPress. I made the writing tool I would like to use. The idea is that you focus all your attention on writing, so it has all the functionality that you need to write and nothing else.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Everything else that it does that&#8217;s in the WordPress, their command structure. And it was what I felt was in the way for me to be a writer using WordPress. Because what WordPress, I don&#8217;t want to call it a mistake, it&#8217;s just how it evolved, is that the writing functionality is intermixed with everything else. And it makes it a very intimidating thing to get started with.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so if you look at the people that are the insiders in the WordPress community, that&#8217;s a very small number compared to the number of people who have tried to use WordPress. That&#8217;s a huge number because WordPress is it, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the number of people who use it, but they might prefer a better tool because this isn&#8217;t really what they think about. The things that are in the WordPress command structure are things that most people never need to go to. It&#8217;s too complicated. Look at the feature set of Twitter, for example. And it does a lot more than Twitter does, but most people aren&#8217;t interested in that. That&#8217;s one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Number two is, there are modes of working and writing requires severe focus. I don&#8217;t want to have to jump. Every time I have to go some random other place in the, that I have to devote my brain power to that, what I&#8217;m not doing, I&#8217;m not focused on the plan for writing. When I write something, I&#8217;m thinking three paragraphs ahead. And I&#8217;m trying to remember that because I don&#8217;t want to stop writing to take a note. I want to just go down the page and get my first draft out. But if in order to do this I have to go somewhere far away, that requires me to think, now I&#8217;ve lost my place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it creates a certain stress and programmers, if you say this to a programmer, most programmers go, oh, you&#8217;re just being weird. That&#8217;s not the way it works. Let me tell you how it works. I am also myself a programmer, so I understand the thought process, but you have to play. You have to have both roles in there. And that&#8217;s one of the things that makes me a fairly unique developer, is that I&#8217;m both a writer and a developer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I play on both sides of that fence. And so if I want a writer to test my code, I don&#8217;t do it right after I wrote the code. I come back a couple of days later, now that I&#8217;ve got a fresh way of looking at things and then I try to use it, and then I see the problems right off the bat.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ll link to Wordland. I&#8217;ve had a good long look at the pages that you&#8217;ve offered up. I confess, I haven&#8217;t actually tried it out, but it&#8217;s a, it&#8217;s a very different take on a fairly minimal editing interface in WordPress. So I&#8217;ll make sure to link out to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:37] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s fairly minimal, but it does everything on the Textcasting page. It doesn&#8217;t have the limits that all the Twitter like products have. It&#8217;s all supported, you get to do all of that stuff. And plus you get categories. And I think categories are huge. I really do. And it has a very nice, simple interface for it, but a very powerful one for categories. So, have a look at that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:59] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> And bookmarks. It&#8217;s very important for a writer. I have, I don&#8217;t know how many hundreds of documents that I&#8217;ve written over the years. I pretty much need quick access to all of them. Because I never know when I&#8217;m gonna have to make a change, and that&#8217;s in there too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:12] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Oh wait, I forgot the actual main point. The main point I was gonna make is that I&#8217;ve also, all the work I had to do on the server side to set this up, I&#8217;m not gonna make anybody have to do. That&#8217;s all open source, and I&#8217;ll even run the server for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, because what I want is a development community to pop up here. And so if somebody looks at Wordland, says that&#8217;s not the way to do it, here&#8217;s how you should do it. Say, great, go ahead, do it. And what they&#8217;ll find is, just like with WordPress, okay, there&#8217;s nothing in your way. You get to do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there&#8217;s more from that too, is that the user owns the documents, and all the documents are in markdown format. And so if you want to use a different editor on a document, just to work on it for whatever purpose, go ahead and it&#8217;ll still work in the place it came from.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this is going back to the IBM PC and the Macintosh, where when you had those machines, you owned the documents and you could have any editor you want edit it. And this led to file format standards, because if you come along three years after Microsoft Word comes along in the Macintosh, you better read Word format documents.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since I get to go first here, if this, if something happens, okay, that I have to say, maybe nothing will happen here, you never know. But because I got to go first, I chose markdown. Because markdown is the mp3 of text. It&#8217;s the obvious answer. And tell me why they don&#8217;t support markdown. Anything that works with text should support markdown in my opinion.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s just a nice, easy to access. The keyboard does everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There&#8217;s more. I&#8217;ve written feed readers. All along have been writing feed readers, and we have to sterilize the content because people put all kinds of garbage. And so you basically strip everything out. I&#8217;m tired of doing that. What I want to do is give the writers the ability to put some bold face and italics, and put some links in there, and give it, all the things that are on the Textcasting thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I don&#8217;t want to strip that out anymore. And so in Feedland and in Wordland, markdown is fully supported everywhere, and in RSS. It&#8217;s a key point. If I had that to do over again. I can&#8217;t do that one. I&#8217;m sorry, I&#8217;m going on about this but I really believe in it. I couldn&#8217;t do it over again. If I had to do over again in the beginning, I would&#8217;ve made markdown the text format in RSS, totally. I couldn&#8217;t do it &#8217;cause it didn&#8217;t exist. RSS came first but I&#8217;ve taken care of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, Wordland produces its own RSS feed for every document, along with the one that WordPress produces. And the feed we produce has the markdown in it. And it has a couple of other things, and it, we will have more. As we think of more features to add. I&#8217;ve now got a place where I can add features. These are in a namespace, it&#8217;s totally non-controversial. I&#8217;m not modifying RSS, I have something called the source namespace.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then at some point, again, it&#8217;s all prefixed by if it catches on, then I&#8217;ll go to the guys that do the feeds inside of WordPress and say, here&#8217;s some suggestions for features to your feed. And at that point we&#8217;ll be friends, I hope. And they&#8217;ll, love me and I&#8217;ll love them. It&#8217;s not impossible. There are people on the team that are helping us. That&#8217;s nice, I really love that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So taking it back a little bit, we&#8217;ve got the Textcasting framework that we described a little bit, a few moments ago. That kind of feels like the underpinnings to this other piece that I mentioned. And again, links in the show notes. Think Different About WordPress. Now, I confess, I&#8217;ve been following you for many years. really, in my head, collided you with WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:08] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I wasn&#8217;t, you interpreted</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And then suddenly you pop up with this piece about Wordland for start, which is a, an editor, which binds to WordPress. And then this whole piece about think differently about WordPress. Now this is really curious because, well you tell me what you&#8217;re proposing. I could try, try to interpret it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:26] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I tried put the key idea upfront, okay. When I say Think Different About WordPress, I can tell you exactly what that is, what you&#8217;re supposed to think. I used the grammatically incorrect version that Apple uses.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Think different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:43] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yeah, it was cute. I thought, what the heck, let&#8217;s do it. That&#8217;s the point, really. And it is just think of WordPress as the equivalent of the Bluesky service and the Mastodon service. And the reason you can do that is because it&#8217;s really comparable. They&#8217;re all text databases, that&#8217;s what they are. They have some different structures. That&#8217;s okay, we can add structures too. But it&#8217;s how good are they at doing that, and how mature is their code, this is very technical stuff, right? But what does the API look like, and how stable is the API? These are all the concerns that limit what people can develop on the platform. And if you do the check boxes, I probably should do that, but WordPress wins on every one of them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s a lot of life behind it and a lot of commitment to backwards compatibility.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:35] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> It&#8217;s very simple actually. The reason it is that way is that whoever made the calls, they had a philosophy for the whole 22 years of the web will tell us what to do, and they did it. What else?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I know, I felt Rip Van Winkle, you know what I&#8217;m saying? It&#8217;s like, I was not paying attention to WordPress because I had all the wrong ideas. Now, they didn&#8217;t market to me. They never told me in 2017 they had a new API never. It. They didn&#8217;t tell me that they had a Node.js package for that API. They never told me. I was working in Node.js at that point. So I could have tried it out right away. They never told me. And all of a sudden, like I&#8217;m looking around, I need to add WordPress login to Feedland, because that&#8217;s running, we have a, at feedland.com people should try that too. Okay, because that&#8217;s a big part.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s the feed backend for the system that we&#8217;re talking about. And Feedland runs on the Automattic VIP server. So that thing scales. Okay. I learned how to write, I didn&#8217;t know how to write scalable software before I hooked up with them, in I guess it was like three years ago or something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the first thing we did is, and they were very generous about this in teaching me, and I kept finding things I had to change to make it so that you could support millions of users, right? It&#8217;s not mysterious once you learn how to do it, but there&#8217;s an art to it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The bigger project is imagine Twitter with an editor that could support. Twitter has what I call a tiny little text box, okay? You get to type something in there and they&#8217;ve extended their limit, if you pay them money, 10,000 characters, that&#8217;s a pretty good character limit. I say in Textcasting, unlimited. 10,000 is unlimited, okay. For all practical purposes, if you&#8217;re writing more than 10,000 characters, there shouldn&#8217;t be a limit, but, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you got a text editor. Twitter has a text editor. We have a text editor. Our text editor does the web the way I want it to do the web. And it has timelines where you see messages in reverse chronological order. So imagine if that was RSS, instead of their server. That timeline. You could make a timeline in RSS look just like it came from Twitter. There&#8217;s no problem with that, and that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve done. When you subscribe to feeds, what you get.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So anything that supports RSS plugs into this system, and guess what? RSS is totally replaceable. Everything that I do, you can come up with another one and it works just as well, because RSS is an open format. Yeah, it&#8217;s got a protocol with it too. There&#8217;s a RSS cloud, which I mentioned in that piece, which does the real time component of it. It worked great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress supports it in every one of the instances they do it, and so it may be more limited than the one, but I don&#8217;t know the one that&#8217;s in Bluesky or Mastodon. It may have features that are hard to do, but like I said, then it will do features. It&#8217;ll have things that they can&#8217;t do either.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One thing it&#8217;ll do is it&#8217;ll be very, very, very, very, simple. That&#8217;s the point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What I&#8217;m thinking here is, I think that the typical listener listening to this will be thinking, how does this differ from, let&#8217;s say, going to Twitter, but it&#8217;s got a different interface and it&#8217;s got a different character limit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:59] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Not that different. whole idea is that it won&#8217;t be that different. I&#8217;m not actually running your server. Go, you could pick and choose. You don&#8217;t like my timeline, fine. Go get Joe&#8217;s timeline or Mary&#8217;s timeline or, Google might have a timeline or OpenAI might have one or. Do you need a license to create an RSS reader? No, that&#8217;s the point. The point is you get innovation, you get the doors blown off. You don&#8217;t have a silo. There&#8217;s no silo anywhere in sight.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you want the users, you have to give them features, performance or price. They don&#8217;t have to stay with you if they don&#8217;t want to. There&#8217;s no import or export. It&#8217;s just there. It&#8217;s the feeds you subscribe to. That&#8217;s really, there&#8217;s not a whole lot of technology there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. I mean, it&#8217;s a fairly nice, simple, basic proposition. It sounds from what you were saying in the Think Different About WordPress, it sounds like, well I said you planted your flag in the sand a little bit before. It sounds like you are committing yourself to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> I&#8217;ve already done the work. I&#8217;ll be demoing this at WordCamp Canada in October, hopefully that will all be webcast so everybody can watch it. And it&#8217;ll be archived and it probably will crash, because that&#8217;s the way these things work, right? And, but I will stay with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will get the bugs out. It&#8217;s gonna be a process. It&#8217;s not gonna be done, on October, whatever, 17th I think it is. It&#8217;s not gonna be done. All I ask is have a look then, and then when there&#8217;s a new version, please come have a look then too, and I&#8217;ll come back on your podcast if you want. We can talk about it as it develops. Remember the things that we&#8217;re puzzling, and don&#8217;t mistake for a minute that I&#8217;m not confused too. I am.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m gonna tell you a little self-aggrandizing anecdote. Once in, I think it was high school or something, teachers said, somebody like to come up and solve this problem, it was a math class, solve this problem on the whiteboard?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I said, okay, I&#8217;ll go. And I go up there and I&#8217;m doing it, and I got the answer, and the teacher said, you didn&#8217;t know the answer when you raised your hand, did you? No. I, it&#8217;s like, I&#8217;m an old guy now, that was when I was young. What the hell have I got to lose? Nothing. Nothing. I&#8217;m giving you software, an approach to software that I believe in. And, I&#8217;m testing the idea of the assumption.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was always told that RSS can&#8217;t do what Twitter does, and because I had not mastered server side scaled software, and remember until a couple of years ago, I had never done that. So I said, I have no way of testing that. They say you can&#8217;t do it. They know. I have my doubts about what they said, but I have no way of doing anything about it. And then I got the skill, and then I think now that it&#8217;s not true, I think that you absolutely can do it, and that they had a reason for telling me that, is that they didn&#8217;t want me to do it. Okay, that&#8217;s an invitation, a great invitation if I&#8217;ve ever seen one, right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean go for it. Let&#8217;s go for it, but let&#8217;s all go for it together. You see, that&#8217;s the point. It&#8217;s no fun if I&#8217;m just sitting here going, oh, please, I beg you, would you please try my software so I can be a billionaire too?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I was just gonna say, if you&#8217;re going into WordCamp Canada, and you&#8217;re demoing it all there, but at the moment, I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;re doing all of the work, or you have done all of the work, by yourself. Are you hoping to create a community around this?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:31] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yeah. I want a developer community, but in order to have a developer community, there better be some users, &#8217;cause the developers don&#8217;t come until there are users. So this is something, if a user says, what can I do to help? I&#8217;m just a user. The answer is you could do a lot to help. You can use the damn thing. Your product, your content, the stuff that you write will be a magnet for other people. They&#8217;ll see the reality of it and they&#8217;ll say, oh wow, I guess you can use stuff like this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the next question I have then is how does what you wish to do, how does that stand in relation to some of the currently existing things out there? So for example, the Fediverse, I know maybe that term&#8217;s not something you like to use, but let&#8217;s say Mastodon for want of a better word or ActivityPub, let&#8217;s go with that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>ActivityPub has a plugin which is under the custodianship of Automattic, so we&#8217;re obviously trying to bind our WordPress websites with the Fedi verse and being able to communicate in that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:31] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, that&#8217;s good. That&#8217;s very good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How does yours stand in contrast to that? How, will yours differ from that familiar thing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:47:39] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> What that does is it&#8217;s wonderful. First, let me tell you why it&#8217;s wonderful, and then I&#8217;ll tell you, I don&#8217;t even know how to begin telling you what the difference is. But, it&#8217;s wonderful because it accomplishes at least part of the goal of bringing the Textcasting vision into Mastodon. So if I have a blog called daveverse.org, which is a WordPress blog, and when I post something there, it&#8217;s also cross posted to Mastodon. And as far as I can tell, there&#8217;s no character limit. And it has styling, and it supports links, and it has images, and block quotes. It&#8217;s got a lot of the stuff. It even has titles. That&#8217;s right, it has titles too. If you go look at the Textcasting list, that&#8217;s pretty good coverage, right? It&#8217;s a major innovation, it&#8217;s a major step forward.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what that does, hopefully it gets it onto the radar of the developers of Mastodon. The more people want that, okay, they have to make that clear. And right now, I don&#8217;t think people even know it exists. There&#8217;s not a lot of awareness of it. I&#8217;ve tried the best I can to, and I&#8217;ll keep pumping it for this reason. And the more successful it is, the more it puts pressure on Bluesky to do the same thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s having the same effect that I&#8217;m hoping to have and, so I like it. Remember, I&#8217;m wearing a lot of hats here, but one of the hats I wear is, as a writer who wants the freedom to use all the writing tools, I don&#8217;t want to be given three strings, I want all five strings, using the guitar anology.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So this, what I&#8217;ve done is create something that has the potential of playing the role that, the core of Mastodon does. The whole thing. The whole thing, right? It&#8217;s not comparable to a plugin that connects WordPress to Mastodon because that&#8217;s a plugin, and what they&#8217;re doing is heroic, that&#8217;s the word I use for it, Matthias and his team are doing at Automattic, are doing is heroic, because it&#8217;s a hard problem to solve. It&#8217;s taking &#8217;em a lot of time and they&#8217;re working really hard, but those guys really believe, they&#8217;re really committed. And I, love that. It&#8217;s both heroic and love inspiring. These guys are great. And they won&#8217;t have to do that for my system. They won&#8217;t, it&#8217;ll just come for free.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:50:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> With the Mastodon system, obviously the ActivityPub protocol will bind to a server of your choice. So many people go with mastodon.social as the sort of the default. Presumably there&#8217;s gotta be some part of the architecture for your system, which in that way, some central place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:50:20] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> There is a server component to what I&#8217;m doing. Okay. It doesn&#8217;t matter where that server is running. You can run it anywhere, somebody has to run it, and it&#8217;s open source, and it&#8217;s not even a GPL license, it&#8217;s MIT licensed. So go have fun with this thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it&#8217;s on GitHub right now. I&#8217;m not asking people to install it yet because I want to get a chance to like lock it down before we start cloning it. It&#8217;s going to, it is designed to be no lock-in. It is, does, require somebody to run a server</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the bit that I&#8217;m reading off the scripting.com website where, you know the piece entitled Think Different About WordPress. You have this sentence where it says, a storage service and it says, I&#8217;m going to run the server for you to get the bootstrap going, my treat. That was the bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:14] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> That raised the alarms, right? It should raise the alarms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Exactly. It made me think Twitter in a way, it made me think there&#8217;s this central bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:51:21] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> No, it&#8217;s not, because I have the answer that Twitter never had, which is I&#8217;m giving you all the code you need to run your own server. I&#8217;m giving that to you. I&#8217;m not making you write it. In Twitter you can&#8217;t even write it. If I wrote a server that did what Twitter&#8217;s server does, that&#8217;s great, but it wouldn&#8217;t be part of Twitter. It wouldn&#8217;t be available to everyone. The availability here is the same availability as RSS. So can I subscribe to your RSS feed, even if your thing is on another server? Of course.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s all you need to know. Ultimately, that&#8217;s all you&#8217;re going to need is to be able to. It&#8217;s just RSS, that&#8217;s all it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s RSS all the way down.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:03] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> But let me just say this, is that&#8217;s also a strength of the WordPress community, the skepticism. You&#8217;re always, you guys are always watching for the lock in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;ve spent trying to encourage the world that you need to own your own data, or at least have. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:17] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Unfortunately the world, on the whole, didn&#8217;t listen, so we keep banging that gong.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:24] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Yes. But let me point out that you are the distillation of the people. You&#8217;re the group of people who care deeply about that stuff. So keep it up because, and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m ready to answer those questions because, and here&#8217;s the punchline. Even though I&#8217;m not part of your community, we share that religion.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, that&#8217;s nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:43] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Why do we share the religion? Because it&#8217;s the web. Because that&#8217;s what the web taught us. Maybe we believed, maybe we were very naive in the nineties and the early two thousands. We were, we&#8217;re not naive anymore. I think the last, the very last sentence in the Think Different, go read that, right now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:53:02] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> They lied to the users all the time, over and over. No, I don&#8217;t object to you making money, but I&#8217;m putting it out there. You can compete with me. I want you to compete with me, as long as you don&#8217;t try to cut off the interop. I&#8217;m not naive. Believe me, I expect that will happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:53:16] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> That&#8217;s just all the credentials I need to be in your community, right? Not all the credentials. I don&#8217;t know half the stuff any of you guys know about the how to do. I don&#8217;t do PHP for example. I don&#8217;t know how to set up a WordPress server. I have somebody that helps me with that. So I&#8217;m not qualified to be a member of the WordPress community, but that&#8217;s the beauty of the web. I don&#8217;t have to be to connect with that community, because that&#8217;s what the web gives. And that&#8217;s pretty awesome, don&#8217;t you think? And the other thing is that makes it even more awesome is that all the other people like me will be able to do it too. Why? Because in the end they played straight with you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Depending on when this podcast is released, it may well be that you&#8217;ve done your presentation. If that is in fact the case, then I will make sure to link to the WordPress TV, the video that will have been captured. I&#8217;ll link that into this post. But also I&#8217;ll link to the Textcasting document and, also the Think Different About WordPress document. And encourage you, if you&#8217;ve got any interesting kind of, I&#8217;m gonna say rewinding the clock and returning the world to a different era where the blue sky was there, and there was less cloud, than go and explore those different bits and pieces.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I will definitely be coming back to you, Dave Winer, to figure out exactly how it&#8217;s gone and maybe call it months or something like that. And we&#8217;ll see where you&#8217;ve got with the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:40] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> If we&#8217;re still here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. But we will, we&#8217;ll leave it there. And, I will say thank you for chatting to me today about this really important subject. Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:48] <strong>Dave Winer:</strong> Thank you much, it was great. Have a good day.</p>\n</div></details>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/scripting.com\">Dave Winer.</a> </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave’s journey into the heart of Silicon Valley began in the early 1980s, when he left Wisconsin and moved to California with two products and a dream: to achieve fame and fortune in the world of technology. Driven by a deep belief that real communication involves people truly connecting, he set out to make his mark.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Early on, he found himself in a memorable meeting with Steve Jobs, both were in their early 20s, bursting with ambition and self-assurance. Their encounter was fiery and competitive, yet it marked the start of Dave’s lifelong mission to wire the world together, not just with technology, but by bringing people closer through it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’ve ever subscribed to a blog, listened to a podcast, or shared your thoughts online, chances are you’ve benefitted from Dave’s pioneering work, he’s the developer behind influential technologies like RSS, and a long-time advocate for open, user-owned, publishing platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He describes himself as someone who wrote the first versions of lots of software, wants to work with everyone, still has big ideas, he likes things to be open from top to bottom, and doesn&#8217;t care for greedy people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today we’re talking about the vision, history, and future of the open web. Dave reminisces about the origins of today’s internet, the early days when idealism and collaboration were at the web’s core. He shares stories from his career, the rise and fall of early software startups, and how the initial spirit of community slowly gave way to the “walled gardens” of big tech giants like Facebook, Google, and Twitter.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the conversation isn’t just about nostalgia, it’s a call to action for reclaiming the internet’s potential. Dave explains what went wrong with the evolution of the social web, why he thinks blogging tech like RSS just needed “more love”, and how the influx of money and centralisation stifled the creativity and interoperability the web was built for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You’ll also get to hear about Dave’s latest efforts to reignite those original web ideals, he reveals the thinking behind Wordland, a minimalist and powerful writing tool for WordPress users that puts freedom, portability, and open protocols front and centre.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave also lays out his “Textcasting” manifesto, challenging platforms to truly support writers with features like unlimited length, markdown support, and true ownership of content, without the need for permission or platform lock-in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave truly is a pioneer of the internet, and is certainly not finished yet. He’s putting WordPress at the centre of many of his future endeavours. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re passionate about owning your content, deeply curious about web history, or looking for inspiration on how technology can empower rather than control, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MORE_(application)\">Dave&#8217;s MORE product</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.eff.org/\">EFF</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://home.cern/science/computing/birth-web\">The birth of the Web</a> &#8211; CERN</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http://scripting.com/\">scripting.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub\">ActivityPub</a> on Wikipedia</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse\">Fediverse</a> on Wikipedia</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dave&#8217;s <a href=\"https://textcasting.org/\">textcasting.org</a> website</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http://scripting.com/2025/08/28/140604.html\">Think Different about WordPress</a> post on scripting.com</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://this.how/wordland/\">About Wordland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Access to <a href=\"https://wordland.social/\">Wordland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Access to<a href=\"https://feedland.org/\"> Feedland</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://canada.wordcamp.org/2025/session/wordpress-and-the-open-social-web/\">WordPress and the open social web</a>, Dave&#8217;s presentation at WordCamp Canada 2025</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://daveverse.org/\">Daveverse</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:84:\"Open Channels FM: Discovering the Future of AI and Customer Success at CloudFest USA\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=110347\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:91:\"https://openchannels.fm/discovering-the-future-of-ai-and-customer-success-at-cloudfest-usa/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:219:\"In this episode, Adam talks with Jess Frick and Jeff Paul about their panels at CloudFest USA 2025. They discuss customer success in WordPress hosting, AI integrations, and the event\'s highlights, offering fun insights.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 13:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:16;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:71:\"Open Channels FM: 5 Real-World Ways to Build Consistent Creation Habits\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109528\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:78:\"https://openchannels.fm/5-real-world-ways-to-build-consistent-creation-habits/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:131:\"To build a daily creative habit, just hit record and embrace the chaos. 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We&#8217;ve <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/\">sponsored other </a><span style=\"margin: 0px; padding: 0px;\"><a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/12/drupalcon-singapore/\" target=\"_blank\">open-source events like DrupalCon before</a> and did so in a tasteful way that wasn&#8217;t in conflict with the organization&#8217;s mission</span>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 24 Sep 2025 00:31:32 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:18;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55:\"Open Channels FM: Why Open Source Matters in Podcasting\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=108690\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62:\"https://openchannels.fm/why-open-source-matters-in-podcasting/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:156:\"Podcasters face limitations with closed platforms. But there are those who do advocate for tools  to boost data ownership and customization in the industry.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Sep 2025 12:29:21 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:19;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:74:\"Open Channels FM: Exploring WordPress, Textcasting, and Open Web Standards\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=110341\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"https://openchannels.fm/exploring-wordpress-textcasting-and-open-web-standards/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:256:\"In this episode of Fediverse Flows, Matthias Pfefferle chats with Dave Winer about the open web\'s evolution, emphasizing interoperability, linking, and decentralized publishing through WordPress, while discussing challenges faced by contemporary platforms.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Sep 2025 09:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:20;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"Matt: Post-Earthquake Tea Grit\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149908\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/tea/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1551:\"<p>The 4.7 earthquake definitely disturbed my sleep last night, so it&#8217;s nice to have a <a href=\"https://cuzenmatcha.com/\">Cuzen Matcha</a> shot and some <a href=\"https://www.harney.com/products/paris-tea\">Harney &amp; Sons Paris tea</a> to wake up and get me through the day.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignwide size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149909\" height=\"453\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/IMG_0007-1024x768.jpeg?resize=604%2C453&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Speaking of spilling tea, I had a great conversation with <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/joubin-mirzadegan-66186854/\">Joubin Mirzadegan</a> of the storied VC firm <a href=\"https://www.kleinerperkins.com/\">Kleiner Perkins</a> where we got to chat about the hero&#8217;s journey of entrepreneurship, my earliest &#8220;Hot Nacho&#8221; WordPress scandal and the context of current battles, 996 work, jazz clubs in San Francisco, and more. Kleiner never invested in Automattic (I don&#8217;t think we ever pitched) but I have always had huge respect for John Doerr, Brook Byers, Bing Gordon, Mary Meeker, Ilya Fushman, and Mamoon Hamid, so many of the people at KPCB.  You can <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQDNgy774sg\">watch on YouTube</a> or <a href=\"https://pca.st/mggq43pb\">listen in Pocket Casts</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 23 Sep 2025 01:17:50 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:21;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: Work With Music\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149893\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/work-with-music/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:908:\"<p>If you&#8217;re not playing music while you&#8217;re working, you&#8217;re missing out. It&#8217;s incredible how sounds can transform how our brain works. You can, on tap, put yourself into a different mode of being with music; you can change your drive, motivation, mood, and more. There are some apps that have started to hack this, such as <a href=\"https://endel.io/\">Endel</a>, which can generate music programmatically in a very <a href=\"https://www.brian-eno.net/\">Brian Eno</a>-like way. I&#8217;ve been a fan and user of theirs since 2020. I also love the <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/c/LofiGirl\">Lofi Girl</a>. On your <a href=\"https://www.sonos.com/\">Sonos</a> you can actually stream <a href=\"https://www.focusatwill.com/\">Focus @ Will</a>, which is another attempt, and I have a subscription there. My favorite is Endel, though, so if you&#8217;re only going to try one, try that one.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 22 Sep 2025 04:34:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:22;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:54:\"Peter Wilson: I’m speaking at Web Directions Enqueue\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://peterwilson.cc/?p=6715\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:61:\"https://peterwilson.cc/im-speaking-at-web-directions-enqueue/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1744:\"<p>I’m thrilled to be part of the line up for <a href=\"https://webdirections.org/enqueue/\">Web Directions Enqueue</a>, co presented by The Code Company, on November 28, 2025. Enqueue is to be one of the first engineering focused WordPress conferences in Australia, and the line up includes some of the best engineering minds in WordPress today, including <a href=\"https://www.jonoalderson.com/\">Jono Alderson</a>, <a href=\"https://tammielister.com/\">Tammie Lister</a>, <a href=\"https://isabelbrison.com/\">Isabel Brison</a>, <a href=\"https://cameronjonesweb.com.au/\">Cameron Jones</a> and too many more to mention.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I’ll be doing a deep dive into the performance improvements WordPress Contributors have added to the Query classes in recent years. </p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The WordPress Performance team was established in 2021 with the goal of improving the performance of WordPress Core. As a fundamental part of rendering each and every page of a WordPress site, the <code>WP_Query</code> class has received a lot of attention.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this talk, Peter will discuss how the performance of <code>WP_Query</code> and the WordPress Query component have been improved with increased caching, and how that can be taken full advantage of when building WordPress sites at scale.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>There will also be talks about integrating WordPress with LLMs, accessibility and developer workflows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Enqueue is taking place in Sydney on November 28, 2025 in the beautiful Dr Chau Chak Wing Building at UTS (the paper bag building). It will also be streamed via <a href=\"https://conffab.com/\">Conffab</a> if you’re unable to make it in person.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 21 Sep 2025 10:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"Peter Wilson\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:23;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"Matt: Books on Grieving\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149866\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:40:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/books-on-grieving/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:844:\"<p>When my father passed unexpectedly, I was despondent. One thing I remember was the Amazon lovebomb I got from my high school girlfriend Sunaina Sondhi, five books to help me deal with the pain. Even a decade after we dated, books were her love language; in fact, she had given me my very first book about meditation when we were teenagers. I don&#8217;t recall what all the books were, but the two that really made a difference for me were Elisabeth Kübler-Ross’s and David Kessler&#8217;s posthumous book <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Grieving-Finding-Meaning-Through/dp/1476775559\">On Grief and Grieving</a>, and the <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Living-Dying-International-ebook/dp/B000FC147G/\">Tibetan Book of Living and Dying</a>. Each allowed me to process and understand the emotions I was going through.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 21 Sep 2025 02:28:10 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:20:\"Matt: MCP Everywhere\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149849\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:37:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/mcp-everywhere/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1917:\"<p>MCP stands for <a href=\"https://modelcontextprotocol.io/\">Model Context Protocol</a>. (The joke is the S in MCP stands for security, but that&#8217;s another post.) They say to think of it like &#8220;like a USB-C port for AI applications&#8221; because it allows interoperability between AI chatbots and other tools. Here&#8217;s some of the MCP stuff happening across the <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a> solar system:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Core WordPress now has <a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/mcp-adapter/\">an MCP Adapter</a> that uses a new <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/ai/2025/07/17/abilities-api/\">Abilities API</a> to do <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Create,_read,_update_and_delete\">CRUD</a> and more operations across WordPress.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Woo&#8217;s core MCP is coming in version 10.3 in early October, though <a href=\"https://github.com/techspawn/woocommerce-mcp-server\">Lawrence Sinclair already spun one up on Github</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://library.clay.earth/hc/en-us/articles/36405339564315-Clay-MCP-live-Make-integration-improved-Library-and-more\">Here&#8217;s how to set up Clay&#8217;s MCP</a> so your AI can ask things like &#8220;Who are my contacts at Google that I haven&#8217;t spoken to in 6 months?&#8221;</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.beeper.com/desktop-api\">Beeper&#8217;s MCP implementation</a> lets you query your entire message history across iMessage (on MacOS), WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Instagram, and many more with natural language.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Day One has a <a href=\"https://github.com/Quevin/mcp-dayone/\">community MCP implementation from Kevin Davinson</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>When nerds start connecting things, interesting stuff happens; that&#8217;s been my entire career, so while none of these have made it into a critical daily workflow for me, I&#8217;m curious to see what people come up with.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 20 Sep 2025 01:41:21 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:100:\"Gutenberg Times: Block commenting, fun with Telex, from classic to block theme—Weekend Edition 341\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=41913\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:107:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21347:\"<p>Hi there,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A month before Beta, is the time I get excited about a major release. Many new features—I see it all coming together via GitHub and Trac. The Source of Truth is in the works, but it will take a few more weeks to be published, as only when Release candidate 2 comes out I can be sure about what actually made it into the release. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Until then, check out <a href=\"https://telex.automattic.ai/\"><strong>Automattic Telex</strong></a> for your personal block-building needs. Below you learn from others who went before you. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Today the 190th <a href=\"https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/oktoberfest-munich-2025-its-tapped-live-with-english-commentary,Ux8oig2\">Oktoberfest 2025 started in Munich</a>. Should you be in town, give serendipity a chance and let me know. We could meet up. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Enjoy the weekend regardless of where you are. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, <img alt=\"💕\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f495.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /><br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<nav class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents\"><ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a><ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/#building-blocks-with-telex\">Building blocks with Telex</a></li></ol></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/block-commenting-fun-with-telex-from-classic-to-block-theme-weekend-edition-341/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</a></li></ol></nav>\n</div></div>\n</section>\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\"></div>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p><img alt=\"🎙\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f399.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /> The latest episode is <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-120-wordcamp-us-telex-gutenberg-21-4-and-21-5/\">Gutenberg Changelog 120—WordCamp US, Automattic Telex, Gutenberg 21.4 and 21.5, and the need for more blocks</a> with special guest <strong>Sarah Norris. </strong></p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full is-style-no-vertical-margin\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41771\" height=\"207\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-05-at-14.12.23-edited.png?resize=652%2C207&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-small-font-size\"><em>If you are listening via Spotify, please leave a comment. If you listen via other podcast apps, please leave a review. It&#8217;ll help with the distribution.</em></p>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<p>Block-level commenting is Gutenberg Phase 3 feature and in very active development. Although still experimental, it is worth testing now, as it heads to WordPress 6.9. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Aki Hamano</strong>, core contributor to Gutenberg, has created the <a href=\"https://github.com/t-hamano/block-commenting-data-generator\"><strong>Block Commenting Data generator</strong></a> plugin to help him streamline his testing process for this feature. The plugin is available on GitHub, and it is not for use in a production environment. On activation it creates users, comments, and other data. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/releases/tag/v21.7.0-rc.1\"><strong>Gutenberg 21.7 Release candidate</strong></a> is now available for testing. It&#8217;ll be released on September 23, 2025. Block Commenting is a big part, as are DataForms improvements and write mode updates. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>As a side note: You don&#8217;t have to wait for the next Gutenberg release to test things. You can use the <a href=\"https://bit.ly/playground-nightly\"><strong>Gutenberg Nightly with Playground</strong></a></p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #eeeeee; border-radius: 26px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f3efe9;\">\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Check out <strong>Wes Theron&#8217;</strong>s latest video where he shows you <strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lut6UcS5Fg\">how to build one-of-a-kind page layouts in WordPress.</a></strong> He dives into crafting a clean, distraction-free landing page, promoting a special event, and even how to give a specific page its own unique header and footer. Custom templates are totally where it&#8217;s at!</p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> updated his <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/x3p0-progress/\"><strong>Progress Bar</strong></a> Block plugin to v 2.0. It now supports Core features like drop <code>shadow</code>, blockGap and layout controls. It&#8217;s a feature-rich block that feels at home in the block editor, using the known interface components in the sidebar.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img alt=\"Justin Tadlock\'s Progress Bar block plugin from the WordPress plugin repository. \" class=\"wp-image-41943\" height=\"351\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-20-at-09.55.32.png?resize=652%2C351&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dennis Buchwald,</strong> founder of the <em>dbw-media</em> agency in Germany, released his first plugin into the WordPress plugin directory, <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/infinite-logo-carousel-block/\"><strong>an infinite logo carousel block.</strong></a> You upload all the logos into the media library and into the block editor, and it displays a logo carousel with customizable speed, spacing, and hover-pause. A great way to display client, partner, or sponsor logos scrolling over your website. You can even control the overlay at the two sides. This one is a slight pink. It&#8217;s also on brand for <em>dbw-media.</em> </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome to the open-source community of WordPress plugin developers, Dennis Buchwald at <a href=\"https://dbw-media.de/\">dbw-media.de</a> <img alt=\"🎉\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f389.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img alt=\"infinite logo carousel by Dennis Buckwald\" class=\"wp-image-41952\" height=\"95\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-20-at-11.04.40.png?resize=652%2C95&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"building-blocks-with-telex\">Building blocks with Telex</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://telex.automattic.ai/\"><strong>Automattic Telex</strong></a> is like the next big thing in block building, all thanks to natural language! Just tell it what you’re dreaming up, and Telex will whip up the code, package it as a plugin, and you can test it out right away. It’s still experimental, but honestly, there’s no better time to start making your ideas into real WordPress blocks!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not everyone who&#8217;s tried and shared their journey has hit the jackpot. <strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> totally had a blast, as he shared over on <a href=\"https://x.com/pootlepress/status/1965372076765970943\">X (formerly Twitter)</a>!</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jeff Paul </strong>also gave it whirl and shared his experience in <a href=\"https://jeffpaul.com/2025/09/pong-block/\"><strong>Pong Block: A Fun New WordPress Plugin (and a Nod to Telex)</strong></a>. He wrote, &#8220;That simplicity is why I’d recommend Telex to anyone curious about experimenting with block plugin creation. It feels like a fast way to explore an idea and get it live.&#8221; His plugin already <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/pong-block/\"><strong>landed in the WordPress repository,</strong></a> and you can add some playfulness to your site.</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>JuanMa Garrido</strong>, developer advocate at Automattic, also took Telex for a spin. You can read about this journey in his post <a href=\"https://juanma.codes/2025/09/19/playing-with-telex-building-a-mermaid-diagram-block-in-just-a-few-prompts/\"><strong>Playing with Telex: Building a Mermaid Diagram Block in Just a Few Prompts.</strong></a> Mermaid Diagrams can be created via Markdown notation and then displayed on the front end. </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img alt=\"Block editor view of JuanMa\'s Mermaid diagram block, built with Telex. \" class=\"wp-image-41948\" height=\"304\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-20-at-10.26.22.png?resize=643%2C304&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"643\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://x.com/ivanovic_marco\">Marco Ivanovic</a></strong>, designer at Automattic, built a plugin called <a href=\"https://ivanovicmarko.com/2025/09/17/space-dots/\">Space Dots</a> with Telex. A fun block to display a bunch of moving dots that will react to your mouse movements. </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large is-resized\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41977\" height=\"449\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-20-at-12.44.36-edited.png?resize=449%2C449&#038;ssl=1\" style=\"width: 449px; height: auto;\" width=\"449\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Nick Hamze</strong> shared his Telex creations on X (formerly known as Twitter), like this <a href=\"https://x.com/sortaiconick/status/1968135209519550656\"><strong>flash card block</strong></a>. He also promised to submit his best 10 creations to the WordPress repository. </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https://x.com/sortaiconick/status/1968135209519550656\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41978\" height=\"416\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-20-at-12.54.23.png?resize=652%2C416&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></a></figure>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Are you ready to try it too? In his post on <em>wp-content.co,</em> <a href=\"https://wp-content.co/automattic-telex-ai-tool-turns-prompts-to-blocks/\"><strong>Automattic Launches Telex: An AI Tool That Turns Prompts into Custom WordPress Blocks,</strong></a> <a href=\"https://x.com/nithin_sreeraj\"><strong>Nithin Sreeraj</strong> </a>shares some more voices around the community and then walks you through what to expect when engaging with the AI interface and what happens when the first version is available in the Playground-based interface. It&#8217;s well described. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner,</strong> <a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2025/session/moving-a-website-from-classic-to-a-block-theme/\">first-time speaker</a> at WCUS 2025, was interviewed by <strong>Nathan Wrigley</strong> for the WPTavern podcast. <a href=\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/185-mary-ann-aschenbrenner-on-switching-clients-from-classic-to-block-themes\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><strong>#185 – Mary Ann Aschenbrenner on Switching Clients From Classic to Block Themes</strong></a>. They discussed the differences between classic and block themes, with Mary Ann offering practical advice for switching to modern block-based themes. She shared why to make the switch, potential challenges, and client conversion stories. Perfect for anyone wanting to understand how block themes make site building more accessible.</p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-pocket-casts wp-block-embed-pocket-casts\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #f9f9e5; border-radius: 22px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f9f9e5;\">\n<p><strong> <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2025&#8221;</a> </strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2024/\"><strong>2024</strong></a></p>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><br /><strong>Ryan Welcher </strong>has been on the quest to build the Core Icon block, inspired by Nick Diego&#8217;s Icon Block plugin and has been livestreaming his adventures with all kinds of tribulations. He dedicated two live stream sessions to this task. </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voZwxC6uD3s\"><strong>Building the new Icon Block for WordPress core</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogHfLLsbeYk\"><strong>Building the new Icon Block for WordPress core: Part 2</strong></a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Brian Coords</strong>, developer advocate with WooCommerce, asked, <a href=\"https://www.briancoords.com/are-you-down-with-mcp/\"><strong>Are you down with MCP?</strong></a> because he initially didn&#8217;t get the hype—why waste AI tokens on simple tasks you could do faster manually? But after building a custom WordPress plugin for his wife&#8217;s bakery to track ingredient costs, he realized MCP&#8217;s power isn&#8217;t just data connection; it&#8217;s combining that with AI&#8217;s natural language interface to replace clunky forms with conversational commands. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>This week, <strong>JuanMa Garrido</strong> tackled in his livestream <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip8cISDQaYQ\"><strong>REST API Authentication</strong></a>. Together with ChatGPT, he took a deep dive into WordPress REST API authentication methods, starting with the basics of how REST APIs work and setting up WordPress with proper permalinks. Then Garrido walked through WordPress&#8217;s core authentication systems, showing how cookie authentication works in the block editor by examining network requests and cookie headers. He explained WordPress&#8217;s built-in CSRF protection using nonces and demonstrated creating custom REST endpoints with permission callbacks. The tutorial also covers application passwords as an alternative to cookies, comparing them to JSON Web Tokens and discussing security considerations for token storage. Finally, Garrido explored more advanced topics like implementing JWT workflows with proxy servers and OAuth2 authentication for third-party apps.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<p>Featured Image: Oktoberfest Munich photo by Birgit Pauli-Haack</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" autocomplete=\"on\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\" style=\"margin-bottom: 25px;\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input autocomplete=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" id=\"ngl_email\" name=\"ngl_email\" required=\"required\" style=\"border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"email\" /></div></div><button class=\"ngl-form-button\" style=\"background-color: #005075; border-color: #005075; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; color: #ffffff; border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"submit\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"><svg fill=\"none\" height=\"24\" stroke=\"#fff\" stroke-width=\"2\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 24\" width=\"24\" xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/2000/svg\"><polyline points=\"20 6 9 17 4 12\"></polyline></svg></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input id=\"ngl_list_id\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input id=\"ngl_double_optin\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n</section>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 19 Sep 2025 23:40:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:72:\"Open Channels FM: Agentic AI: The Next Evolution for WordPress Websites?\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109354\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"https://openchannels.fm/agentic-ai-the-next-evolution-for-wordpress-websites/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:193:\"In 2025, agentic AI revolutionizes WordPress, enabling context-aware automation and seamless integration across tools, enhancing workflows and empowering users without deep technical knowledge.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 19 Sep 2025 08:58:04 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"Open Channels FM: Best Practices for Asynchronous Communication in Remote Teams\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109619\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:86:\"https://openchannels.fm/best-practices-for-asynchronous-communication-in-remote-teams/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:104:\"Asynchronous communication. Over-communicate, use emojis cautiously, and know when to talk face-to-face.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 18 Sep 2025 12:10:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:28;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: Every 6 Minutes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149834\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/every-6-minutes/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1550:\"<p>I&#8217;m at a dinner tonight and they have these old magazines on the table, including some old copies of <a href=\"https://www.wired.com/\">WIRED</a>, which, if you can imagine, as a kid in Houston in the 90s, was a portal to the amazing world of the internet and technology. I flipped through, and there is an entire web hosting classifieds section! Hiway Technologies wants you to know that every 6 minutes, someone hosts with Hiway.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149835\" height=\"805\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/IMG_4771-768x1024.jpeg?resize=604%2C805&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p>Every six minutes, so they were doing 240 signups a day. 100,000 sites! Last month <a href=\"https://wordpress.com/\">WordPress.com</a> created a new site about every 3 seconds. Hiway was founded by Scott Adams, same name but not the <a href=\"https://dilbert.com/\">Dilbert</a> guy or the <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams_(game_designer)\">game designer</a>, who apparently played football in Florida and the company &#8220;<a href=\"https://www.fau.edu/research/magazine/2018/01/dor-adams-2018-01/\">was sold in 1999 for $352 million. Adams was 35.</a>&#8221; </p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was also this guy, who has a website, but do you?</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149838\" height=\"805\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/IMG_4767-768x1024.jpeg?resize=604%2C805&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 18 Sep 2025 06:57:40 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:29;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:91:\"WPTavern: #185 – Mary Ann Aschenbrenner on Switching Clients From Classic to Block Themes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=199566\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:105:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/185-mary-ann-aschenbrenner-on-switching-clients-from-classic-to-block-themes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:45586:\"<details>Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, switching clients from classic to block themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today we have Mary Ann Aschenbrenner. Mary Ann has been the president of Waterlink Web, a digital agency specializing in WordPress web design, since 2014. Her experience includes e-commerce and membership websites, websites for local nonprofit organizations, and starter websites for small businesses As a lifelong learner, Mary Ann likes to keep pace with the latest innovations in WordPress. She is a fan of block themes, and particularly the WordPress default themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We start by discussing the differences between classic and block themes, with Mary Ann offering practical step-by-step advice for anyone considering a move from a classic theme to a modern block-based theme. She talks about why you might want to make the switch, potential challenges to look out for, and stories from her own experience converting client sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also chat about the evolution of WordPress, the diminishing need for third party page builders, the importance of client education, and the ongoing improvements in the block editor. Plus Mary Ann shares insights from her WordCamp presentation, and her experiences collaborating with the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you&#8217;re a seasoned WordPresser or just starting out and keen to know how block themes are making site building more accessible for everyone, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Mary Ann Aschenbrenner.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Mary Ann Aschenbrenner. Hello.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:54] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Hello. Nice to be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:56] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Very nice to have you with us. Thank you so much. You are the first interview that I&#8217;m carrying out at WordCamp US in Portland in the year 2025.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The endeavour here is to talk about classic themes and block themes. You are doing a presentation. I don&#8217;t suppose you&#8217;ve done it yet, because we&#8217;re right at the beginning of the main conference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:12] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I do it this afternoon at 2:15pm, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Good luck with that. Let&#8217;s just first of all find out a little bit about you. So if you don&#8217;t mind, would you just give us your biography, your potted biography, if you like. Who you are, what you do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:24] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I&#8217;m from Portland, born and raised here. And the reason I got into website design is kind of a fluke and kind of really related to my whole ethos as a citizen of this great city.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, Pier Park is a North Portland park and it&#8217;s where my kids learned to swim. It&#8217;s where a lot of kids learned to swim. It was in a fairly low income neighborhood. And in 2005, the City of Portland decided to close the outdoor pool that was open in the summers. Just funding issues. And I worked with some other North Portland people and we gathered 700 signatures, which I don&#8217;t know if you know this, it&#8217;s a lot of work to get 700 signatures. And we took them down to City Hall, and we presented them and we talked about why Pier Pool needed to stay open.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Sam Adams at the time said, we can find money for these folks. He was on the city council. And lo and behold, they decided to keep Pier Pool open.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, about a month later, I&#8217;m at a City Bureau meeting and was told that the reason they decided to close Pier Pool at the time, instead of Buckman Pool was because Buckman had a website. This was 2000 and five. I was like, oh, it can&#8217;t be that hard to get a website. I&#8217;ve collected 700 signatures, websites have to be easier. So Friends of Pier Park has had a website ever since and we, of course, keep our pool open with it. And that&#8217;s the long story short of how I got into it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s nice. That&#8217;s a real sort of philanthropic community endeavour that got you started on the road to WordPress. I&#8217;m guessing you built that site with WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:05] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I got someone else to do it because I knew nothing about building websites. In 2012, I had the opportunity to go back to school, and I actually went to PCC and studied web design. And I&#8217;ve been building websites, I started my own company shortly after that, and I&#8217;ve been doing it ever since with Water Link Web.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you&#8217;ve been in the weeds for a fairly long time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:24] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Yeah, well over a decade. 14 years or something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;re obviously keeping up to date with all the different bits and pieces in the WordPress space, because the content of your presentation later today is, well, the title is Moving a Website from Classic to Block themes. Some examples, some live and learns. And so I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;re going to be instructing people on, if they wish to make the move, how to go from what we call a classic theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:45] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> It will be like the real step by step. This is what you do this first, you do this second, this is what it&#8217;s going to look like, these are the problems you may come into, and this is how to fix them. And voila, it&#8217;s going to be great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And so from your perspective, what&#8217;s the sort of, the single, well, maybe not single, maybe there&#8217;s a few things that you can mention, what are the most compelling reasons that you would ever want to move away from a classic theme?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let&#8217;s say that I&#8217;ve got a website, it&#8217;s working perfectly fine. There&#8217;s nothing wrong with it, but I&#8217;m kind of curious. I want to explore the option. What are the big ticket items why you would wish to move?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:19] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Well, a couple of reasons. Often the plugins that might be associated with your old theme may no longer being maintained. So there&#8217;s one situation where I mentioned in the presentation, they&#8217;re not being maintained, you won&#8217;t be able to update the PHP on your server and you could have a site that&#8217;s open to hacking and be slower therefore, because it&#8217;s running on a lower grade PHP.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s one reason to do it. Another is once you start using the block theme editor, you don&#8217;t want to go back. And so, you know, I&#8217;ve always maintained my skills with WordPress. I&#8217;ve been active in the WordPress community. I&#8217;ve continued to learn. And, yes, I&#8217;ll admit when the block editor first came out, I was a little trepidatious. I didn&#8217;t use it that first year. But the second year I did, and the third year I did. And I have been using the latest theme every year, ever since when I build my client&#8217;s websites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I just don&#8217;t like going back to the classic and then like, okay, how do we do this? It just isn&#8217;t as intuitive. And as well, it&#8217;s easy to maintain, you don&#8217;t have as much opportunity to make changes as you do in the new block editor. So I&#8217;m just gradually updating my clients.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you have a background in code or are you more of a kind of mouse driven builder?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:38] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Do I have a background in code? I did a little HTML. I understand CSS and I certainly use that a lot with the classic theme, CSS especially. But that isn&#8217;t really where I trained in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Really where my skill lies is working with my clients and creating a website that is unique to them. Every website I do is original. And I look at what colours they want, what values they want to display. And we design based on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And my clients love me. I mean, I&#8217;ve had clients over a decade. Still same clients, still working with me. And they trust me and I know it&#8217;s like, it&#8217;s time to upgrade your website and then we do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think one of the things about the classic themes was that having a deep knowledge of the code and the templating hierarchy in WordPress and those kind of things meant that it was available to some, but not necessarily to everybody.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whereas the block based themes, the more modern WordPress, if you like, there is much more opportunity to get into the weeds. To do your templates and template parts and things like that with a visual editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So long as you can understand the UI, and where to find the menus, and where to construct the different parts of your website. And that promise of democratising publishing seems to be something that is being delivered, despite the fact that, you know, it&#8217;s a bit of a jump to go from classic to full site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:58] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> It is, absolutely. My daughter&#8217;s wedding photographer contacted me. She&#8217;d had a website on Squarespace, and she found out after 10 years of working as a wedding photographer in southern Oregon, she was only on page five of search results. And that&#8217;s ridiculous, but it&#8217;s because of where she had her website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So she switched it over to WordPress and was confused, what do I do next? She had bought a photographer theme, and so it was going to work perfect for her. And I said, you know what? You see those three lines at the top of the page when you go to edit the page, hit them. And she did.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then it was like, oh, the light went on. So she&#8217;s going to contact me again when she&#8217;s got that built out. But now she understands what to do. All she needed to learn was those three lines because then she knows she can edit every single block in there, and knows what to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> If you were to look at the growth of WordPress over the last, I&#8217;m going to say sort of 10 years, something like that, the uptick in WordPress usage up to kind of 40 plus percent, whatever it is now, I think there&#8217;s been a lot of page builders responsible for that uptick. So for example, the likes of Elementor or what have you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it was curious that in the blurb that went with your presentation, you particularly pointed out, I think the quote was, no page builder is needed, or something that. Is that a big part of it for you, that you don&#8217;t need to rely on any third party tool, often which have a fee attached to them for an annual or a recurring license or something like that? Is like that a big part of it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:22] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I&#8217;ve never used page builders. And I have friends in the industry who love page builders, rely on page builders, and I have happy clients and I&#8217;ve never used a page builder. And the site is unique to them. I don&#8217;t feel like adding on another layer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;ve had to change over websites where a page builder was used, and it was very heavy, and slow because there was so much code. And back in the day, an individual who was vision impaired couldn&#8217;t use it because the web reader that they were using couldn&#8217;t read through all this extra code. I just never used it for that reason.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;re better now. I do believe that, but you don&#8217;t need them. When you have the block editor, you don&#8217;t need a page builder.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Are there any situations in which you wouldn&#8217;t ascribe the necessity to move over to a more modern, block based theme? In other words, is there any scenario where you look at somebody that&#8217;s on a classic theme and you say, you know what, just stay where you are, everything&#8217;s fine? Or are you always keen to promote people to move in this direction?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:25] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I&#8217;m not always keen to promote people. So I have a client who, oh gosh, she was part of the second wave feminist movement, and has a really great website people love. I built it for her in like 2015 and it&#8217;s still working fine. She can stay on it. She&#8217;s comfortable with it. You know, there&#8217;s no reason really, if it starts being an issue with the PHP levels and so forth, then I&#8217;ll talk to her about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I suppose there&#8217;s also, given the trends in graphic design and the way websites look, there&#8217;s always a moment in time where your website just begins to look stale on the front end.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:59] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Or it looks retro, or it looks cool. And the others all look the same. So there&#8217;s always that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So that, if you like, was more about the why of you may wish to move over to a, away from a classic theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So let&#8217;s move into the sort of the how then because that I think is the crux of your presentation really, how to do it and you need to demonstrate on the screen and what have you. So let&#8217;s go through that process. What is the first thing that you do when you are looking to transfer somebody over?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:25] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Well, the first thing you do is you set up a staging site. I&#8217;m not saying doing this live. Bring up a staging site on your server. It&#8217;s your same website and all it is is the new URL that says staging, dot, blah, blah, whatever.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then after your staging site is up, you activate your 2025 theme. You may want to use 2024. 2024 is a really good theme as well. I think the patterns in 2024 are maybe a little more geared toward business, and the patterns in 2025 may be a little more geared towards personal blogs and artists. But pick one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you have now have the 2025 theme, and it&#8217;s going to look very plain because it&#8217;s just plain until you fix it. And the next thing I usually do is I go through and start editing the pages. So a lot of my old themes, I put in the classic editor plugin. Remember the classic editor plugin?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I do, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:19] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Yeah, we were afraid of block editor so we all put classic editor on. And so it kind of keeps it looking classic. And, well, you deactivate that. And then when you go to a page or a blog post, you&#8217;ll see a little greyed block on the top of that content that says classic editor. You click it, and then it&#8217;ll say, convert to blocks. And this is where you just do it. You say, yes, I&#8217;m going to convert to blocks. You click it, and you got blocks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, where you are going to find problems? But first of all, most of it deploys really well. Paragraphs deploy, they&#8217;re still paragraphs. Headers deploy, they&#8217;re still headers, et cetera, et cetera. But where you have columns, your original theme may have used some sort of a short code for columns that&#8217;s different than a block editor. So that may not convert.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Where you have embedded YouTube videos or something, you may decide to do them differently using the YouTube embed plugin instead of whatever code comes up. And you&#8217;ll get a little, if a paragraph doesn&#8217;t convert well or a block doesn&#8217;t convert well, it&#8217;ll say, you&#8217;ll know that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But you still have your live site. So you can go there and find the content and put it back in. You know, it would would be cut and paste if you may have to chase down a YouTube link to embed a YouTube video. But it is all very doable and it&#8217;s pretty fast. It doesn&#8217;t take that long. I had a website with 200, over 200 blog posts that I had to do that on. That took a little while. But it was 200 blog posts, more than that actually. But for just a standard website with a dozen or so pages, it&#8217;s not hugely time consuming.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I guess the only problems that may occur is if some part of the, well, let&#8217;s say theme, but it may be a plugin, but it may be part of the theme was injecting something somewhere. And in the classic editor you don&#8217;t see it, but it somehow surfaces on the front end. I don&#8217;t know, it may be the insertion of an ad or something like that. And then you may run into problems because you can&#8217;t see where that content&#8217;s coming from.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I suppose in your scenario, you&#8217;re just flicking backwards and forwards between the current live site, which is the classic one, and then you&#8217;ve got your staging site, which is the block based one. I guess it&#8217;s just a jigsaw puzzle really. You&#8217;re trying to figure out, okay, why is that missing? Where does that come from? How can I deploy it in blocks and go through that process? And hopefully on each iteration you get more and more back to what the original content was.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:38] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Right, exactly. That&#8217;s how you do it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. And so it&#8217;s a process of going through it kind of one at a time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Have you ever encountered something which you couldn&#8217;t solve in that scenario? Have you ever come across something where you just throw your hands in the air and think, what, where&#8217;s that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:50] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> One time. So I had a website on a Studio Press theme, and I did the conversion. It all looked good to me. And then I realised when you were not logged into the site, the navigation didn&#8217;t show up properly. And I tried to figure that out and I redid the navigation. It looked good when you&#8217;re logged in, but when you&#8217;re just looking at the site not logged in, it wasn&#8217;t. So I ended up actually rebuilding that site entirely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:17] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I just went ahead and brought up a whole new 2025 theme and copied and pasted content and brought it over.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so rather than having a staging site, well, you presumably did have a staging site, but it wasn&#8217;t a case of going into the posts or the pages and clicking the convert button. This more of a, okay, something&#8217;s broken here, I need to start from scratch.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:34] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Something&#8217;s broken, I couldn&#8217;t figure it, I mean, I&#8217;m sure if I were a coder, I would&#8217;ve dug into the code. But it&#8217;s like, it&#8217;s going to take me hours, it&#8217;s going to be easier in this case. It didn&#8217;t have a ton of content. There was like six or eight pages and maybe four or five blog posts. So it wasn&#8217;t that hard to do. It was easier to just bring up the new 2025 theme and start fresh.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, in the scenario where you&#8217;ve only got a handful of pages, it probably is literally quicker to do it that way and copy and paste.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:58] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Especially if you see an issue pop up immediately. It&#8217;s something, the navigation, I couldn&#8217;t figure out why that wasn&#8217;t working. But it was a Studio Press theme, so something was coming through from the old theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. And you mentioned that this whole process where you, you go to your staging site and you go into a post or a page, and there&#8217;s this bar at the top. The content is missing essentially. And there&#8217;s this bar, it&#8217;s a grey bar and it looks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:23] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Well, the content is usually there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, but it&#8217;s all in the wrong, it&#8217;s as it was essentially. So it&#8217;s not yet as blocks. And you click the button, wait a heartbeat, a moment, and the WordPress sort of process of migrating one to the other just sort of takes over. Paragraphs become paragraphs blocks, and on you go. I&#8217;ve yet to have that fail on me in a catastrophic way. It&#8217;s never done anything unexpected.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:45] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> It&#8217;s never failed catastrophically, not on me. And I&#8217;ve converted, even on that one website I just mentioned, the content converted great. It was just the navigation that was the issue. But I&#8217;ve used Canvas theme, which used to be produced by WooCommerce before it became a part of WordPress. And I&#8217;ve used, of course another theme on, that another website. So that content comes through actually, really easily.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You mentioned also that you are using the default theme in most cases. So you mentioned 2025, but also you said, I think perhaps try 2024 or something like that. Is that your kind of go-to? Do you explore the ecosystem of other themes that are out there in the environment, either the repo or possibly commercial themes, or you just heavily leaning into default themes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:28] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I just lean into the default theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Is there any particular reason for that? Because obviously, you know it&#8217;s going to be updated, which is really nice. You know that it&#8217;s a, well, it&#8217;s deployed on every WordPress website, a standard if you download a vanilla version of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:39] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> It&#8217;ll be maintained for a long, long time. I know somebody who&#8217;s still in the 2015 theme and their site still works great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, the backwards compatibility promise of WordPress is pretty remarkable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:51] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> It&#8217;s pretty remarkable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:52] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Have you found limitations in those themes though? So one of the things that I think people wish were better would be, for example, things like navigation. You know, the options that you have in default blocks for navigation. Currently, there&#8217;s quite a lot of work going on to improve that as it happens. But are there any limitations that you&#8217;ve encountered where you thought, I wish it could do more?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:12] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I haven&#8217;t with the 2025, not recently anyway. But with 2024, I used a little bit of CSS in the navigation block. So add a little CSS.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, just tweak it a little bit. There&#8217;s a lot of requirements for maybe, I don&#8217;t know, mega menus, things like that, adaptations to the mobile menu that are not available in the blocks. And as we&#8217;re leaning more into kind of like a no code environment with block based themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:35] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> I have used a plugin for mega menus on one of my clients.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:37] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. So you take care of that in a different way by using plugins? Yeah, okay. That kind of makes sense.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, so that&#8217;s the bits and pieces perhaps about the sort of how you do it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:46] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> And the reason I used the mega menu plugin for that client was he had very specific ideas of how he wanted his navigation to look on cell phone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, because it is fairly limited what you get out of the box. There&#8217;s not too many options and think the community is possibly moving towards having something a little bit better in the, yeah, a bit more full featured, let&#8217;s put it that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a curious question, do you see any need for more than a single theme in the WordPress space anymore? So in other words, now that we&#8217;re leaning into an era where all of the bits and pieces that would&#8217;ve been handled by the theme is now handled by the interface of the block-based theme. So, for example, all of your templates is within the UI of full site editing and what have you. Do we even need a whole bunch of themes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Could we just have a single theme which did the bare bones, maybe headers, footers, menus, that kind of thing. And then all of it is done by patterns or templates, which can be pointed on and clicked in, in the interface?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:44] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Well, I think that it&#8217;s good to have themes, and I&#8217;ll tell you why. My daughter&#8217;s wedding photographer. She is not a website designer. You know, she was used to using Squarespace, realised that the SEO on it sucked and decided to go to WordPress and found a great photography theme from a good maker of themes. I had no problem with it. I looked at it. And all she needed was a little tip on how to see where her blocks were and what the block is. She&#8217;s just going to be able to go with that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now if she was starting from scratch with no theme to work with, and just trying to figure it out, I think it&#8217;d be a lot harder for her. But having a template that&#8217;s like, here&#8217;s your photography template, she can put her own pictures in there. She understands the concept, and she&#8217;ll be able to build her own website with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you find it&#8217;s easier for your clients then to work with the block based themes than it was with the classic themes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:43] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I find sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to kind of work out where you are in the UI. You know, you&#8217;ve clicked on a bunch of things and you can&#8217;t figure out how to get back to where you were, things like that. But then if I weigh that up against how difficult it was with classic themes, where you had to basically have a code editor open at some point and be editing template, PHP files, and things like this. Although it&#8217;s a bit confusing navigating around the UI, I think even the people developing WordPress would say, yes, there&#8217;s a bit of work to be done on the UI. I think on the whole, it&#8217;s much easier, but I don&#8217;t know what your clients think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:13] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> You know how I explained to my clients, I said, if you use Mac, can you put together a Pages document and maybe add some images, can you do that? And they say, yes. I said, well, if they&#8217;re using Microsoft, can you do the same thing? Yes, I can. Well, then you can use the block theme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because once it&#8217;s set up, I mean, I think that there&#8217;s certain areas that are a little more tricky and for our clients, I&#8217;ll say, look, don&#8217;t get into the editor. Do not do full site editing. Let me do that. If you want to add something to the navigation, just tell me, I&#8217;ll edit it. It&#8217;s not a big deal. It takes me five minutes. They&#8217;re going to have to figure it out, because it&#8217;s only something they&#8217;re going to do once in a while when they change their navigation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But for any of their pages, you know, they know how to hit the three lines, see what block they&#8217;re in, click it, it lights up the block on the right hand side, and then they can do the editing to the right of that. They can do it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you lean into the feature of locking blocks? Because it sounds like you&#8217;ve got a fairly close relationship with your clients. You&#8217;re probably able to get on the phone with them and things like that, have that communication. So you can just say, don&#8217;t touch that, leave that alone, and that&#8217;s fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But obviously in different scenarios where, I don&#8217;t know, it might be more corporate, that kind of thing, the capacity within native WordPress to exclude the client from being able to edit that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So as an example, yeah, you can change the text on that block, but it&#8217;s a cover block, but we&#8217;re not going to allow you to change the background image. Or conversely, you can change the background image, but you can&#8217;t change the text, those kind of things. So these are sort of new features which have crept in over time, and I&#8217;m not sure how many people use those, whether or not that would be of interest to you and your clients.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:45] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> You know, it&#8217;s their website. They may be on my servers that I&#8217;m hosting, but it&#8217;s their website and if they really want to mess it up, they can. And I can fix it. But really, it&#8217;s not a problem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s been a few times, I have one client who adds content and he happened to add it all in tables. I don&#8217;t know why or how. I had to fix it on one of his pages. But, you know, I fixed it and the content is there down and it&#8217;s not in a table.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you build into your process, when you have converted something from classic to block base, do you have like an education piece in the middle there somewhere?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:18] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Oh, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So time to show the client how to use it. Because obviously they may be very familiar with classic editing, or it may be something that they&#8217;re not really dabbling in that much. Either way, it&#8217;s not at all like the new thing. And how do you do that? Do you allocate time? Do you have videos prepared or just sit next to them in their offices?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:35] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> You know, we usually do it as like a Zoom call. They share their screen. Well, actually, during the process, there&#8217;ll be times when I&#8217;m on the phone in a Zoom call with the client or a Google Meet call with the client, and I&#8217;m showing them what I&#8217;m doing on my end. So that&#8217;s part of the education process.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we talk about, okay, do you like this font? No, I don&#8217;t like this one. Okay, well, how about this one? They see me change things back and forth. I put up content and they say, oh, we want to edit that. We want to rephrase it like this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if we&#8217;re doing it on a Zoom call, it&#8217;s going back and forth, they see how I&#8217;m working. And I make a point, oh, see how I hit these three lines, and we can edit this paragraph block, let&#8217;s put a background on this paragraph block. Here&#8217;s how you do it. So they learn how to do that, just kind of as we&#8217;re building it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then when it&#8217;s done, I will definitely show them how, anything they want to change. And I&#8217;ll walk through them how to add a blog post, for example. Usually the pages are pretty dialed in by the time we go live, it&#8217;s exactly where they want. So they might need to learn how to add blog posts. And I&#8217;ll introduce them to the blocks I think they&#8217;re going to use. They don&#8217;t need to know how to do every single block because there&#8217;s so many blocks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Do you switch some of them off, make them unavailable? I don&#8217;t know, there&#8217;s things like the Animoto Block, which goodness knows whoever was using that, I don&#8217;t know. But it&#8217;s there. I think most clients don&#8217;t need them. And having the capacity to switch some blocks off, quite a nice idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:00] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> You can. I haven&#8217;t done that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, okay. And are there any common gotchas? When you&#8217;ve gone through this process multiple times, is there anything which comes out the other end which is reliably strange to the client? You know, okay every client&#8217;s reporting back either, nothing, this is brilliant, it&#8217;s a hundred percent, I&#8217;m all on board. Or do you have common things which you have to explain over and over again to the different clients because it&#8217;s just quirky?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:21] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> There&#8217;s a couple clients that are boards, nonprofit boards, and so then I have to explain it over and over again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And is that because of the nature of.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:31] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Because the person I&#8217;m talking to changes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:34] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Sometimes clients will want something I don&#8217;t really feel like I can deliver. So I have a client who wants full with image, with content on top of it, and wants it to be a slider. So there&#8217;ll be a full width image with content and a button, and then another full width image with content and a button. It&#8217;s a slider. So I created this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then when it was done, they were like, well, I want the whole image to show on a cell phone. I had to explain, if that entire image gets so narrow that it shows on a cell phone and it&#8217;s not very tall, your content won&#8217;t fit in it. And it was really hard to accept. So that kind of thing can occur.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I mean, it&#8217;s not for everybody, but I feel at this point, this is the future of WordPress. This is the way it&#8217;s going to go. This is what most people are talking about and what have you. Just getting into your presentation later, firstly, good luck with it. I hope it goes well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:26] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How are you tackling this subject? Are you going to be doing slides? Because it&#8217;ll be curious, the audience, presumably in front of you are, well, we&#8217;re at WordCamp. Presumably they are a bunch of WordPressers. I&#8217;m curious to know at what level you are pitching it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:39] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> You know, I think somebody who&#8217;s fairly new to WordPress will be able to get a lot out of this. I think it&#8217;s geared towards somebody with a little bit of experience, not a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m going to talk about three different websites. One of them was actually built in 2006 on Blogger. I wasn&#8217;t the one that built it. And two other websites. And I&#8217;m going to talk a little bit about the City of Portland, so people who come to this, even if they know everything I&#8217;m talking about will learn a little bit about the City of Portland.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And this is all filmed as well, which is kind of nice. And these days those videos tend to get turned around pretty quickly. Long gone is the day that you would attend a WordCamp and then six months, a year later, the video would still be stuck in somebody&#8217;s hard disk.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hopefully by the time this podcast episode drops, that will be out and we&#8217;ll be able to watch your presentation. I think I&#8217;ve asked everything that I wish to ask. Is there anything that you think that we didn&#8217;t touch during our conversation?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:31] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> There is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Go for it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:32] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> While I was building the site with 200 blog posts, I discovered a little, what I thought was a glitch. And it turns out it&#8217;s a feature. But if you were a developer, you think it&#8217;s a feature. So in the 2025 theme, when you go to templates, you go to your website editor and you go to patterns, and then you have the header, the footer, and the page templates.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For the blog page, I pick a page template for the blog page, just that one. And then I can go in and I can select the style of my query loop. So if I want a query loop that&#8217;s just a picture on the left and content on the right for that blog page, and then people can scroll through and see all the different blog posts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I picked one that was different than that. So I picked it, and then I deployed it, and then I went to the blog page and looked at it and it looked great. Except when I hit next page, it returned to the same page. It never was advancing to all these other 200 blog posts. And I was like, what happened here?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I went back to the template, page, templates, blog page, picked a different query loop. Same thing. Picked a third query loop. Ah, this one worked. I could advance to the next pages. So then I was curious, why is this?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I went back to that template, hit the three line dropdown arrow, looked at every single block in there and saw a pagination block that had not been in the others at the bottom of the group. So then I copied that and I put it in. And voila, my original one worked, I was very happy with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I went yesterday to the Contributor Day and I sat at the Core Performance table, and normally not where I would belong, and said, this is your issue, it&#8217;s got to be fixed. And they looked at it, and a couple more people looked at it, and then they explained to me that not all query loops are used on the blog page. Some might be used on a landing page. And you may not want a next pages on every one of your query loops, so it&#8217;s not there on everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of interesting that it got there on one of them. And I think this is something that can be quite confusing, things like that, which in the old world, you would&#8217;ve dropped in as a short code. And in order to get that short code, you would&#8217;ve gone into some other UI and configured it all, and then the short code would&#8217;ve been spat out with the correct parameters to do what you wanted. So there might have been a toggle for show pagination, take pagination off, and what have you. And then the short code would ultimately do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the block editor, this kind of thing happens fairly frequently in that there are nested blocks. And if you don&#8217;t deploy the nested blocks, so for example, if you didn&#8217;t know that pagination was a separate block, which usually sits outside of the query loop, usually below it in the same group or something like that, it&#8217;s easy to think, well, it ought to be there. Why isn&#8217;t it there? And sometimes you have to go find that pagination block, insert it in the right place and what have you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, so things like that, if you don&#8217;t see it, you don&#8217;t see it. It&#8217;s not intuitive to think that it ought to be there. And I can think of probably dozens of examples of that kind of thing where blocks that you may rely on are in fact nested blocks of other blocks, and they may not come in automatically.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, yeah, it&#8217;s a process of figuring that out, and maybe a toggle inside the query loop block saying, just enable pagination, turn it off, or something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:11] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> That might be helpful. But I was able to fix it, and I realise now that it actually is a feature because they can, you can go to those query loops and look at all sorts of query loops that you might use elsewhere on your website. So I thought it was great to go to Contributor Day. I contributed and I learned.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s really nice. And people were able to explain it to you. Yeah, definitely a thing if you come to a WordCamp, certainly of this magnitude, attend the Contributor Day. And it&#8217;s not just a process of contributing, it can be a process of sitting next to people who are working and asking them questions and thereby upping your own knowledge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:44] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> And I don&#8217;t think that they were aware of it until I pointed it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, they&#8217;re in the weeds of deploying it, and they may not consider all the use cases. And in this case, you had one in which it didn&#8217;t work as expected. I guess from their point of view, everything that they said is probably true. You know, it may be deployed in this way, it may not, and so we built it in such a way that you can have the pagination or not, but nevertheless, you kind of needed it right away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, that&#8217;s brilliant. Thank you so much Mary. Appreciate you chatting to me today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Where can we find you if people would like to reach out about anything you&#8217;ve talked about? Where&#8217;s the best places?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:14] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> On my website is waterlinkweb.com. You can find me there. I&#8217;m on Instagram at Water Link Web. I have a LinkedIn, Mary Ann Aschenbrenner at LinkedIn. And I think that does it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, thank you very much. I&#8217;ll make sure all those bits and pieces get into the show notes. So head to wptavern.com, search for the episode with Mary Ann Aschenbrenner. I will hopefully speak to you another time. Thank you very much for chatting to me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:40] <strong>Mary Ann Aschenbrenner:</strong> Thank you very much, Nathan.</p>\n</div></details>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannaschenbrenner/\">Mary Ann Aschenbrenner</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary Ann has been the President of Waterlink Web, a digital agency specialising in WordPress web design since 2014. Her experience includes e-Commerce and membership websites, websites for local nonprofit organisations, and starter websites for small businesses. As a life-long learner, Mary Ann likes to keep pace with the latest innovations in WordPress. She is a fan of block themes and particularly the WordPress default themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We start by discussing the differences between classic and block themes, with Mary Ann offering practical, step-by-step advice for anyone considering a move from a classic theme to a modern block-based theme. She talks about why you might want to make the switch, potential challenges to look out for, and stories from her own experience converting client sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also chat about the evolution of WordPress, the diminishing need for third-party page builders, the importance of client education, and the ongoing improvements in the block editor. Plus, Mary Ann shares insights from her WordCamp presentation, and her experiences collaborating with the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you’re a seasoned WordPresser, or are just starting out, and keen to know how block themes are making site building more accessible for everyone, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannaschenbrenner/overlay/about-this-profile/\">Mary Ann Aschenbrenner</a> on LinkedIn</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://waterlinkweb.com/\">Waterlink Web</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://friendsofpierpark.org/\">Friends of Pier Park website</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2025/session/moving-a-website-from-classic-to-a-block-theme/\">Moving a Website from Classic to a Block Theme</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.studiopress.com/\"> StudioPress</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.blogger.com/\">Blogger</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Sep 2025 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:30;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:113:\"Open Channels FM: How to Make Your Open Web Content Last Forever: Effortless, Permanent Backups and Media Storage\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=108637\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:118:\"https://openchannels.fm/how-to-make-your-open-web-content-last-forever-effortless-permanent-backups-and-media-storage/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:360:\"The open web is a patchwork of ideas, creativity, and discovery that thrives on its openness and diversity. But what happens when websites go offline, hosting bills lapse, or platforms disappear? The reality is that content is lost every day to link rot, expired services, and vanished archives while silently erasing important stories and knowledge. [&#8230;]\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Sep 2025 13:29:01 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:31;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:90:\"Open Channels FM: GoDaddy’s New AI Site Designer: From Idea to WordPress Site in Minutes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109724\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:93:\"https://openchannels.fm/godaddys-new-ai-site-designer-from-idea-to-wordpress-site-in-minutes/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:157:\"Our sponsor GoDaddy\'s Airo Site Designer is an AI tool that quickly creates WordPress sites from simple prompts, making it easy for anyone to go online fast.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Sep 2025 09:36:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:32;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: United Starlink\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/united-starlink/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/united-starlink/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:978:\"<p>I’m on my first United flight with Starlink, and wow! I ran a <a href=\"https://fast.com/\">fast.com</a> test and got 110 mbps down and 38 mbps up, which is insane.  28ms ping times. While flying! When you think of all of the engineering and technology coming together to let me blog this it’s really incredible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Update 2025-09-16: United actually responded to my tweet about this. <img alt=\"😂\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f602.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"embed-twitter\"><blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\"><p dir=\"ltr\" lang=\"en\">Entertainment at 35,000 feet has never been better (or faster)! ?</p>&mdash; United Airlines (@united) <a href=\"https://twitter.com/united/status/1968318805018632648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">September 17, 2025</a></blockquote></div>\n</div></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 17 Sep 2025 00:05:41 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2025 12:55:08 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:81:\"Open Channels FM: From Print Design to Podcasting, the Scenic Route to Creativity\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109666\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:87:\"https://openchannels.fm/from-print-design-to-podcasting-the-scenic-route-to-creativity/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:156:\"In this episode, BobWP shares the launching his blog and podcast, Bob\'s Wild Pathways, filled with honest stories and insights from his creative adventures.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 16 Sep 2025 10:11:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:15:\"Matt: Retention\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149819\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/retention/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:120:\"<p>Andrew Chen <a href=\"https://x.com/andrewchen/status/1965419750525431873?s=46\">has a great post on retention</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 16 Sep 2025 04:40:11 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:22:\"Matt: Weekend YouTubes\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149801\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:39:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/weekend-youtubes/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:3290:\"<p>One of my favorite YouTubers is <a href=\"https://charlescornellstudios.com/\">Charles Cornell</a> (WordPress-powered!), who <span style=\"margin: 0px; padding: 0px;\">creates great videos </span>that break down the music theory of various things you’ve heard, such as this adorable one featuring <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-fv_oyYhqc\">SNES soundtracks</a> or <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRRSWmZrJGs\">The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild</a>. I first came across him <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Popdt3NYgU\">reacting to Jacob Collier in 2020</a>. Once I got super-into Severance, <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQg1TMEEPnQ\">his breakdown of the spooky music is great</a>. It’s also interesting to see that the YouTube community is going through its own version of fair use and copyright, trademark, etc., enforcement, which he discusses <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GrLFQ26jFs\">here</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://blog.samaltman.com/\">Sam Altman</a> is always interesting to follow, and it&#8217;s interesting to contrast this <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxmdmlJCG0\">great interview he did with David Perell on writing</a> with this <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KmpT-BoVf4\">very direct and awkward one with Tucker Carlson</a>. I have immense respect for anyone who enters the arena and engages directly with journalists or critics, rather than hiding behind PR agents or lawyers. Given the current blood feud, it&#8217;s fun to go back eight years and <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnBQmEqBCY0\">see Sam Altman interview Elon Musk</a>, long before any of the AI stuff blew up they were both terribly prescient.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ray Dalio is always a gem and <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49RT6SQ8n0Y\">he went on Diary of a CEO</a>. Theo Browne <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TMPWvPG5GA\">has a good take on what it means to vibe code</a>. Kishan Bagaria <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwsfdRY-K2s\">discusses how Beeper is going to reach 100  million users</a>. The story of how Atlassian took a <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SKUw3w2FEg\">non-traditional enterprise path with Jay Simons is great</a>. Not a YouTube, but don&#8217;t miss <a href=\"https://www.theverge.com/decoder-podcast-with-nilay-patel/773904/sierra-ceo-bret-taylor-ai-agents-openai-bubble-interview\">Bret Taylor on The Verge</a>. Check out <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N7XvGaQ72E\">Adam D&#8217;Angelo at South Park Commons</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And finally, I&#8217;ll say that <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/premium\">YouTube Premium</a>, which turns off all the ads, is probably one of the highest value subscriptions you can have. <span style=\"margin: 0px; padding: 0px;\">Many of these are essentially like podcasts, and from a product perspective, I think we need to figure out how to sync and allow seamless movement between watching, listening, or reading transcripts</span> in <a href=\"https://pocketcasts.com/\">Pocket Casts</a> (Automattic&#8217;s open-source podcasting app). We support video podcasts, but there&#8217;s no good way yet to have a <a href=\"https://www.audible.com/ep/wfs\">Whispersync-like</a> experience between video, audio, and a transcript.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 14 Sep 2025 23:23:42 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:24:\"Matt: Old Business Cards\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149786\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:41:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/old-business-cards/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2624:\"<p><br />I recently came across a few old business cards I designed back in 1999. The first ones were for my services as a saxophone player:</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149788\" height=\"336\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/business-card-blue-1024x569.jpg?resize=604%2C336&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149787\" height=\"345\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/business-card-yellow-1024x585.jpg?resize=604%2C345&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n</figure>\n\n\n\n<p>A few notes:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>I went mostly by “Matthew” then.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>At some point I decided to remove the home address and say that I was available to play not just alto saxophone but baritone, tenor, and soprano as well.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The number was the home shared house number, not a cell phone.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The email was an email address the entire family shared, under my dad’s name.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.hal-pc.org/\">HAL-PC</a> was an amazing non-profit local to Houston that stood for the “Houston Area League of PC users.” There was a pretty reasonable annual membership fee, and they hosted a monthly general meeting which had hundreds of attendees, always with a presentation or two and a raffle giveaway at the end. They were a dial-up ISP and BBS/newsgroup host. I volunteered for them by going in on Saturdays where they had a room people could bring their broken computers to and get free tech support, and by hosting a SIG, or special-interest group, around PalmOS called <a href=\"https://hpug.org/\">HPUG</a>, the Houston Palm Users Group. This was a big part of the inspiration for WordCamps.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>This was for my “design” business:</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149789\" height=\"345\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/business-card-design-1024x585.jpg?resize=604%2C345&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p><br />I would also design business cards for friends, here’s one for my friend who was a percussionist and vibraphonist, Chase Jordan: </p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149790\" height=\"362\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/business-card-chase-jordan.jpg?resize=604%2C362&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 14 Sep 2025 02:50:47 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:107:\"Gutenberg Times: Licensing for AI, Patterns, Gutenberg 21.6, and future of WordPress—Weekend Edition #340\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=41777\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:112:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:26136:\"<p>Hi there,</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome to the WCUS Part 2. The workshop recordings are online, and my chat with other dev advocates has also been published. You can read about it in this article, which includes the video: <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-ai-and-the-generational-shift-insights-from-wcus-creators-studio/\">WordPress, AI, and the generational shift: insights from #WCUS Creators Studio</a>. </p>\n\n\n<div class=\"ng-block-40b43d7bee127d69 wp-block-newsletterglue-image ng-block size-large is-resized\" width=\"100%\"><div><div><div align=\"center\" class=\"ng-block-td\" style=\"padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px;\"><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-ai-and-the-generational-shift-insights-from-wcus-creators-studio/\"><img alt=\"In the WCUS Creators Studio: Brian Coords, Jonathan Bossenger, Birgit Pauli-Haack, Ryan Welcher\" class=\"wp-image-41835 ng-image\" height=\"337\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-10-at-15.46.21.jpg?resize=600%2C337&#038;ssl=1\" style=\"border-style: none; border-color: transparent;\" width=\"600\" /></a></div></div></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\" style=\"height: 20px;\"></div>\n\n\n\n<p>A few publishers assembled to come up with a <a href=\"https://rslstandard.org/\">license standard for machines</a>, aka AI. As site builders, or owners, you&#8217;ll be interested that there has been some work on the way. More below.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Have a splendid weekend ahead! </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, <img alt=\"💕\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f495.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /><br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<nav class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents\"><ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#wordcamp-us\">WordCamp US </a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#new-in-the-playground-world\">New in the Playground world</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/licensing-for-ai-patterns-gutenberg-21-6-and-future-of-wordpress-weekend-edition-340/#ai-news\">AI News</a></li></ol></nav>\n</div></div>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"wordcamp-us\">WordCamp US </h2>\n\n\n\n<p>As mentioned, the recordings of the Workshop are now online. The block and site editor related ones are: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/05/the-block-developer-cookbook/\">The Block Developer Cookbook</a> with Ryan Welcher</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/05/launch-your-personal-portfolio-a-hands-on-wordpress-workshop/\">Launch Your Personal Portfolio — A Hands-On WordPress Workshop</a> w/ Jamie Marsland. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>If you are more interested in AI and development, these might be for you: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/05/turn-your-local-wordpress-install-into-your-ai-coding-assistant/\">Turn Your Local WordPress Install Into Your AI Coding Assistant</a> with Jonathan Bossenger</li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/05/scalable-ethical-ai-how-to-own-your-content-and-your-ai-with-wordpress/\">Scalable, Ethical AI: How to Own Your Content and Your AI with WordPress</a> with Jeff Paul </li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/03/unlock-developer-superpowers-with-ai/\">Unlock Developer Superpowers with AI</a> with Adam Silverstein</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>It was <strong>Ryan Welcher</strong>&#8216;s turn to publish this month&#8217;s <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/09/whats-new-for-developers-september-2025/\"><strong>What’s new for developers? (September 2025</strong>)</a>. The updates include: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Composer package for the Abilities API now available for early testing ahead of WordPress 6.9</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Four experimental Accordion blocks (Accordion, Accordion Item, Accordion Header, Accordion Panel) powered by the Interactivity API. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>Theme.json now supports styling form elements, including text inputs and select dropdowns. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>Data Views received multiple enhancements, including infinite scroll and card layouts. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>The Date block now supports custom dates and block bindings </li>\n\n\n\n<li>A new Query Loop Title block variation displays post type labels. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>WordPress Playground added support for multiple theme installations and new CLI flags, plus PHP debugging improvements through XDebug Bridge. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>The AI team released stable versions of core libraries and introduced new development tools. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>For details and more, you need to <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/09/whats-new-for-developers-september-2025/\">read the post</a>. <img alt=\"🤗\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f917.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /> </p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-accent-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-d65ff08da66da2d111d02250490fde35\">Don&#8217;t miss a new article on the WordPress developer blog again. <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/subscribe/\">Subscribe! </a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/cbravobernal\"><strong>Carlos Bravo</strong></a> managed the release of Gutenberg 21.6 and highlights in his post <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/09/10/whats-new-in-gutenberg-21-6-10-september/\"><strong>What’s new in Gutenberg 21.6? (10 September)</strong></a>: </p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/09/10/whats-new-in-gutenberg-21-6-10-september/#new-accordion-button\">New add accordion button</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/09/10/whats-new-in-gutenberg-21-6-10-september/#improved-dataviews-grid\">Improved DataViews grid interface.</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/09/10/whats-new-in-gutenberg-21-6-10-september/#inputs\">Form elements  now support global styles</a></li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41891\" height=\"291\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-13-at-14.03.46.png?resize=652%2C291&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p><img alt=\"🎙\" class=\"wp-smiley\" src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/16.0.1/72x72/1f399.png\" style=\"height: 1em;\" /> The latest episode is <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-120-wordcamp-us-telex-gutenberg-21-4-and-21-5/\">Gutenberg Changelog 120—WordCamp US, Automattic Telex, Gutenberg 21.4 and 21.5, and the need for more blocks</a> with special guest <strong>Sarah Norris. </strong></p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full is-style-no-vertical-margin\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41771\" height=\"207\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-05-at-14.12.23-edited.png?resize=652%2C207&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-small-font-size\"><em>If you are listening via Spotify, please leave a comment. If you listen via other podcast apps, please leave a review. It&#8217;ll help with the distribution.</em></p>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In her latest post, <a href=\"https://wordpress.com/blog/2025/09/10/pattern-system-wordpress-publishing-workflow/\"><strong>The Pattern System: Publish Faster with Reusable WordPress Layouts</strong></a>, <strong>Anam Hassan</strong> breaks down how WordPress Patterns can save you tons of time by letting you reuse the same layouts over and over instead of rebuilding them from scratch. She explains three types: synced patterns that automatically update everywhere when you change them once, unsynced patterns that give you the same starting template but let you customize each one differently, and locked patterns that keep your design safe when other people are writing content. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/06/an-introduction-to-overrides-in-synced-patterns/\">Synced pattern overrides</a> are however missing from the post.  </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Tune in to the latest episode of the <em>WP Behind the Builds</em> podcast on Open Channels. <a href=\"https://openchannels.fm/the-founders-of-podcaster-plus-share-product-development-experiences-and-community-insights/\"><strong>The Founders of Podcaster Plus Share Product Development Experiences and Community Insights</strong></a>. Host <strong>Mark Westguard</strong> speaks with <strong>Dan Maby</strong> and <strong>Nathan Wrigley</strong>, founders of Podcaster Plus, about their new WordPress plugin designed to simplify podcast publishing and customize audio players. The plugin uses the Interactivity API for modular blocks like play buttons and volume controls, enabling users to create personalized audio players. Podcaster Plus automates publishing by generating posts for new episodes in RSS feeds and offers add-ons for custom post types, SEO, and automation. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>You can sign up for the beta of the new plugin at the website <a href=\"https://www.podcasterplus.com/\">PodcasterPlus.</a></em></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>At WordCamp Sofia last year, <strong>Jordan Hlebarov</strong> explored in his talk <a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/08/15/gutenberg-in-action-how-the-block-editor-simplifies-client-workflows-and-boosts-agency-efficiency/\"><strong>how the Gutenberg block editor simplifies the workflow for both agencies and clients</strong></a>, by making content management more intuitive and efficient, as well as how it benefits both clients and streamlines agency operations. The <a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2025/08/15/gutenberg-in-action-how-the-block-editor-simplifies-client-workflows-and-boosts-agency-efficiency/\">video</a> is now available on WordPressTV and also offers <a href=\"https://sofia.wordcamp.org/2024/files/2025/05/hlebarov-WordCamp-Sofia-2024-1.pdf\">a link to the slides</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>On the <em>WordPress Developer Blog</em>, Justin Tadlock published an in-depth tutorial on <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/09/building-a-light-dark-toggle-with-the-interactivity-api/\"><strong>Building a light/dark toggle with the Interactivity API</strong></a>. He demonstrates creating a toggle that works without custom blocks using modern CSS techniques and WordPress APIs. The tutorial covers theme setup, color scheme storage using user meta and cookies, implementing the toggle button with interactivity directives, adding JavaScript functionality, styling with icons, and registering a block variation for easy editor insertion, resulting in a complete light/dark mode toggle for block themes. <em>You can <a href=\"https://blockdevelopercookbook.com/recipes/block-transforms/\">follow along on the Block Developer Cook Book website. </a></em></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/RinodeBoer\"><strong>Rino de Boer</strong></a> normally uses Elementor to build sites. Recently he explored Block themes and the 2025 default theme. You can follow along via his YouTube video <strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-YZtMZsTc\">Exploring WordPress Block Themes (Spectra, Raft, Ollie, TT5 &amp; more) — Live Test</a></strong></p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jason Crist</strong> published a new plugin: <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/synced-patterns-for-themes/\"><strong>Synced Patterns for Themes.</strong></a> He writes in the description, &#8220;This plugin enables theme developers to ship patterns that behave as synced patterns (reusable blocks) while maintaining the benefits of theme-bundled patterns. When a theme pattern is marked as synced, it automatically becomes available as a reusable block that updates across all instances when modified.&#8221; The plugin description also elaborates on the features and how to use it. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Crist also authored the <strong><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/pattern-builder/\">Pattern Builder</a></strong> plugin, you can also find in the repository. &#8220;Pattern Builder transforms how you work with WordPress block patterns, providing a comprehensive solution for creating, managing, and organizing patterns right from your WordPress admin.&#8221; </p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>I have not tested these plugins. Use at your own risk!</em></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Bud Kraus </strong>again has a great tutorial to unregister all kinds of core block features, i.e., block styles, blocks, or theme style variations. He shows you example code and also what happens when things are unregistered that were already in use. Check out his blog post on Kinsta: <a href=\"https://kinsta.com/blog/unregister-style-variations/\"><strong>Unregistering style variations in a WordPress block theme.</strong></a></p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #f9f9e5; border-radius: 22px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f9f9e5;\">\n<p><strong> <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2025&#8221;</a> </strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong> | <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong> | <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2024/\"><strong>2024</strong></a></p>\n</section>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor.</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> chips away at his Block Development Cookbook series on YouTube. In the video <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBORsxDzwu0\"><strong>How To Convert WordPress Blocks Into (Almost) Anything!</strong></a>, you learn how to enable transforms for your blocks, a way to migrate a current block into a different block. The block editor has a few transforms out of the box, like changing the content of a paragraph block into a list block. Or a into a Quote block without losing the content. Ryan helps you solve this using the transform API for your custom blocks.</p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\" width=\"100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"new-in-the-playground-world\">New in the Playground world</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In his post, <a href=\"https://www.pootlepress.com/2025/08/no-servers-no-installs-just-a-link-and-a-complete-wordpress-site-appears/\"><strong>The future of WordPress? A complete website from nothing but a link, </strong></a> <strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> explores how WordPress Playground runs entirely in your browser without servers or setup, and Blueprints transform it from a demo into a powerful tool. Blueprints are recipes that create complete professional websites with one click, benefiting agencies, educators, freelancers, and developers. Marsland built <a href=\"https://pootleplayground.com/\">PootlePlayground.com</a> and <a href=\"https://PootleSites.com\">PootleSites.com</a> to expand Blueprint creation capabilities. The future roadmap aims to push these temporary browser sites into permanent hosting.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"ai-news\">AI News</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In his post, <a href=\"https://sethrubenstein.info/2025/09/12/boosting-wordpress-development-with-github-copilot/\"><strong>Boosting WordPress Development with GitHub Copilot</strong></a>, <strong>Seth Rubenstein</strong> explains how GitHub Copilot, an AI coding assistant, helped his team quickly build four WordPress features that would have taken months to complete manually. The AI handled tasks like creating admin panels and fixing SEO titles with minimal human oversight. However, the AI couldn&#8217;t test its own work, so Rubenstein integrated WordPress Playground, a browser-based testing environment, allowing the AI to actually browse and check the websites it builds, making the development process more reliable and efficient. Rubenstein shared all the details of how he accomplished it. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Matt Mullenweg</strong> <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/really-simple-licensing/\">shared</a> on his blog, &#8220;one of the more interesting things to launch.&#8221; this week: </p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://rslstandard.org/\"><strong>RSL (Really Simple Licensing)</strong></a> is an open standard that helps content publishers protect their rights in the AI era by embedding machine-readable licensing terms directly into web pages using XML markup. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The system supports various compensation models, including attribution-based licensing, pay-per-crawl, and pay-per-inference arrangements. Publishers can specify different terms for different usage types, particularly for AI training applications. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The standard addresses challenges content creators face with AI systems using their work without clear compensation or attribution by providing a structured format that automated tools can understand and respect, giving creators standardized control over their content usage. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The founders are <strong>Eckart Walther</strong>, who is also the co-creator of the RSS (Really Simple Syndication) standard, and <strong>Doug Leeds</strong>, former CEO of Ask.com and former CEO of IAC Publishing. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The RSL team has established a collective licensing organization, the <a href=\"https://rslcollective.org/\">RSL Collective,</a> that can negotiate terms and collect royalties, similar to ASCAP for musicians or MPLC for films. </p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Russell Brandom</strong> at TechCrunch has the whole story. <a href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/09/10/rss-co-creator-launches-new-protocol-for-ai-data-licensing/\"><strong>RSS co-creator launches new protocol for AI data licensing. </strong></a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>James Le Page</strong>, team rep on the WordPress AI team, built a first version of a plugin for publishers using WordPress: <a href=\"https://github.com/Jameswlepage/rsl-wp\"><strong>RSL Licensing for WordPress</strong></a>. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I am left to wonder how public LLMs adhere to this standard and more interestingly, if they will pay licensing fees. Brandom wrote, &#8220;Without some kind of licensing system, AI companies could face an avalanche of copyright lawsuits that <a href=\"https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/anthropic-s-settlement-shows-the-u.s.-can-t-afford-ai-copyright-lawsuits\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\">some worry</a> will set the industry back permanently.&#8221; </p>\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-callout undefined not-color-set\" style=\"border-color: #eeeeee; border-radius: 26px; border-style: solid; border-width: 0; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: left; margin-left: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: #f3efe9;\">\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n\n\n\n<p><img alt=\"GitHub all releases\" src=\"https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge\" /></p>\n</section>\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-group\" style=\"padding-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;\">\n<p>Featured Image: Photo by Cristina Gottardi on Unsplash</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" autocomplete=\"on\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\" style=\"margin-bottom: 25px;\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input autocomplete=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" id=\"ngl_email\" name=\"ngl_email\" required=\"required\" style=\"border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"email\" /></div></div><button class=\"ngl-form-button\" style=\"background-color: #005075; border-color: #005075; border-width: 1px; border-style: solid; color: #ffffff; border-radius: 21px;\" type=\"submit\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"><svg fill=\"none\" height=\"24\" stroke=\"#fff\" stroke-width=\"2\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 24\" width=\"24\" xmlns=\"http://www.w3.org/2000/svg\"><polyline points=\"20 6 9 17 4 12\"></polyline></svg></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input id=\"ngl_list_id\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input id=\"ngl_double_optin\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" type=\"hidden\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n</section>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 13 Sep 2025 12:07:50 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:15:\"Matt: Legal Win\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149776\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/legal-win/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1032:\"<p>Just got word that the<a href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69221176/169/wpengine-inc-v-automattic-inc/\"> court dismissed several of WP Engine and Silver Lake’s most serious claims</a> — antitrust, monopolization, and extortion have been knocked out! These were by far the most significant and far-reaching allegations in the case and with today’s decision the case is narrowed significantly. This is a win not just for us but for all open source maintainers and contributors. Huge thanks to the folks at <a href=\"https://www.gibsondunn.com/\">Gibson</a> and <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a> who have been working on this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With respect to any remaining claims, we’re confident the facts will demonstrate that our actions were lawful and in the best interests of the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This ruling is a significant milestone, but our focus remains the same: building a free, open, and thriving WordPress ecosystem and supporting the millions of people who use it every day.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 13 Sep 2025 01:27:15 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:29:\"Matt: Really Simple Licensing\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149763\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:46:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/really-simple-licensing/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:675:\"<p>It&#8217;s been a busy (and tragic) week but one of the more interesting things to launch was the <a href=\"https://rslstandard.org/\">Really Simple Licensing standard</a>. I have a lot of scars from the web standards wars, so I&#8217;m hesitant to dive back in, but this is from a lot of the early Web 2.0 people, <a href=\"https://techcrunch.com/2025/09/10/rss-co-creator-launches-new-protocol-for-ai-data-licensing/\">as TechCrunch writes about</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As it happens, <a href=\"https://github.com/Jameswlepage/rsl-wp\">James LePage of Automattic has spun up a WordPress plugin for it</a>, so that was fast. Now the thing to figure out is distribution and adoption.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 12 Sep 2025 05:18:26 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Matt: Account for Externalities\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149759\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:36:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/externalities/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2454:\"<p>When I studied economics, one of the concepts that struck me the most was the concept of externalities. <a href=\"https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/Series/Back-to-Basics/Externalities\">This International Monetary Fund post explains it well</a>. In short, externalities are costs or benefits of an economic activity that affect third parties who did not choose to incur them, leading to a divergence between private and social costs or benefits. They’re spillover effects—positive or negative—that the market price fails to reflect. A classic example is air pollution from a factory, where nearby residents bear health and environmental costs not included in the price of the factory’s products.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Open source is full of externalities. On the positive side, adoption creates ecosystems of developers and provides many paths of distribution. On the negative side, there’s often underinvestment in the very projects that sustain the ecosystem. I have a lot of empathy for why, when open source meets finance and private equity, things can go sideways. You can look at a business built on open source and see seemingly amazing margins—efficient R&amp;D that compounds in a <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discounted_cash_flow\">DCF model</a>. A percent here or there over many years really adds up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>My plea to investors in open-source businesses is this: when a business is built on top of open source, incorporate a restorative investment percentage back into the projects critical to the end-user experience of what you’re offering customers. In WordPress, we call this <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/five-for-the-future/\">Five for the Future</a>, but it doesn’t have to be five percent; it could be 0.1%. Plan for it when modeling your expected <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_rate_of_return\">IRR</a> hurdle from an investment. Then, a few years down the line, when the small percentages start to add up, you won’t face a big catch-up or gap.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This underinvestment is itself an externality. It doesn’t appear on the balance sheet, but it can manifest in black swan events, such as security breaches or remote code exploits. Technical debt is one of the largest unaccounted-for externalities in the world today. Engineering, in the long run, is primarily a craft of maintenance rather than creation. The bulk of the cost of something comes from its upkeep over time.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 12 Sep 2025 00:58:50 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"Matt: PostHog\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149753\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/posthog/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1235:\"<p>It&#8217;s always fun to see someone pushing the limits of the web experience, <a href=\"https://x.com/photomatt/status/1966026258837549485\">as I reminisced about Flash and Dreamweaver the other day.</a> The new website for <a href=\"https://posthog.com/\">Posthog</a> is a delightful rabbit hole to explore, akin to a <a href=\"https://meowwolf.com/\">Meow Wolf</a>, with meticulous care and craft applied to every corner of the product in a way that is both fun and playful. They even have their own version of  pineapple on pizza.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-149755\" height=\"322\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-11-at-10.50.28-1024x546.png?resize=604%2C322&#038;quality=80&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"604\" /></figure>\n\n\n\n<p>What I want to enable with <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/\">WordPress</a> is the ability with thousands of plugins and themes for people to have unique, funky experiences like this on their website, while still providing a content structure that&#8217;s legible for interoperability and hacking. Major kudos to <a href=\"https://watilo.com/\">Cory Watilo</a> and <a href=\"https://x.com/james406\">James Hawkins</a> for coming up with this.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 12 Sep 2025 00:09:36 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:43;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:95:\"Gutenberg Times: WordPress, AI, and the generational shift: insights from #WCUS Creators Studio\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=41824\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:102:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-ai-and-the-generational-shift-insights-from-wcus-creators-studio/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10736:\"<p>Automattic&#8217;s Developer Advocates didn&#8217;t hold back at WordCamp US. <strong>Jonathan Bossenger,</strong> <strong>Brian Coords</strong>, <strong>Birgit Pauli-Haack</strong>, and <strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> sat down for a no-BS roundtable about WordPress&#8217;s future, AI&#8217;s actual role in the CMS world, and the big question: Is WordPress still cool enough for the next generation of developers?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This wasn&#8217;t your typical conference panel with rehearsed talking points. The conversation dug into how WordPress is evolving right now—messy bits, growing pains, and all.</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Is WordPress headed for &#8220;Legacy&#8221; status?</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The episode opened with a gut-punch question from a ChatGPT impersonation of a 25-year-old YouTuber: Is WordPress becoming a &#8220;legacy CMS,&#8221; or does it still belong at the cutting edge of web development?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The panelists weren&#8217;t having it. Birgit jumped straight into the modernization happening right now—Gutenberg&#8217;s evolution, sophisticated admin interfaces, and the shift toward block-based design systems. This isn&#8217;t your grandfather&#8217;s WordPress dashboard.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brian kept things grounded: Sure, newer technologies like React and Vite deliver flashy front-end experiences, but guess what? Most projects eventually need a solid content management foundation. WordPress still delivers out-of-the-box content modeling, user authentication, and integrations that would take months to build from scratch elsewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">No-Code dreams or developer nightmares?</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation shifted to whether Full Site Editing and block themes actually simplify web building or just create new headaches for developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan pushed back on the &#8220;things are getting messier&#8221; narrative. His take? Structured, scalable paradigms always require an adjustment period. It&#8217;s not messier—it&#8217;s different, and that learning curve is normal.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Birgit shared a telling example: features like custom block styles that once required developer intervention are now accessible to content creators. It&#8217;s empowering non-developers while maintaining professional guardrails—exactly what good tooling should do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brian&#8217;s perspective? The block paradigm creates consistency. More people can build and customize using standardized approaches instead of fighting with fragmented solutions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The subtext here: WordPress isn&#8217;t dumbing down. It&#8217;s getting smarter about who can participate in the building process.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Winning over the next generation</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>A big conversation centered on how WordPress stays relevant for younger developers swimming in a sea of shiny new options. Does WordPress still feel fresh? The team didn&#8217;t dodge the question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It’s true: WordPress needs to meet new developers where they actually hang out—YouTube tutorials, TikTok quick hits, and mobile-first learning. Gone are the days when developers solely learned from documentation and forums.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan hit a key point: WordPress must keep demonstrating its power and possibilities, not just its legacy. Brian backed this up with market reality—there&#8217;s still solid demand for both PHP and React skills within the WordPress ecosystem. The work is there if developers want it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But here&#8217;s the proof point that really landed: Birgit shared CERN&#8217;s story—yes, the global research powerhouse—migrating thousands of websites to WordPress. The kicker? Younger developers on their team were leading the charge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s not a platform declining. That&#8217;s a platform adapting and attracting fresh talent where it matters most. The question isn&#8217;t whether WordPress can compete for the next generation—it&#8217;s whether we&#8217;re telling that story loud enough.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WordPress and Headless: the reality check</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Panelists were clear: WordPress has the headless chops with REST API and GraphQL support, but that doesn&#8217;t mean everyone should jump on the bandwagon. Despite the industry buzz, most sites simply don&#8217;t need headless architecture.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The sweet spot? Clients with significant budgets or organizations treating WordPress as a content hub that feeds multiple touchpoints—other applications, mobile experiences, or external APIs. For everyone else, traditional WordPress delivers faster launch times and simpler maintenance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What&#8217;s interesting is the innovation happening on both fronts. Developers are not only exposing WordPress data through REST and GraphQL but also pulling external data sources like Airtable directly into the block editor. That&#8217;s where the real magic happens for most teams.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In reality, headless setups are complex beasts with multiple failure points and hefty price tags. Traditional WordPress wins the speed-to-market race and keeps maintenance headaches to a minimum.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The infrastructure is solid, and real projects are shipping, but headless remains the exception rather than the rule. The ecosystem continues doubling down on improving core WordPress while keeping headless as a powerful option when the benefits justify the investment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The short version: headless WordPress is a tool, not a mandate. Choose wisely based on your actual needs, not the hype.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">AI integration—beyond the buzzword</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>You knew AI would come up—it&#8217;s practically mandatory at every tech event these days. But the panel cut through the noise with some practical reality.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here&#8217;s the thing: AI-powered plugins have been around for a while now. The real challenge isn&#8217;t adding more AI features—it&#8217;s creating unified standards and APIs at the Core level. Think image generation, content creation, and debugging tools that actually work together instead of operating in silos.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brian nailed the infrastructure angle: WordPress needs to pick standards that balance extensibility with privacy. Not everyone wants their content shipped off to massive cloud-based LLMs, and rightfully so.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The smart play isn&#8217;t chasing every AI trend that pops up on Product Hunt. It&#8217;s building the foundation that lets developers integrate AI thoughtfully—whether that&#8217;s keeping processing local, giving users control over their data, or ensuring different AI tools can actually talk to each other.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>AI in WordPress isn&#8217;t about being flashy. It&#8217;s about being useful secure and giving users real choice in how they want to leverage these tools. That&#8217;s the kind of AI integration that actually moves the needle.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Will AI replace developers?</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The panel didn&#8217;t dance around this one: AI makes developers more productive, not obsolete.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan kept it real about AI coding assistants like Copilot—they&#8217;re helpful, but they&#8217;re not magic. You still need actual developer expertise to review, modify, and debug what these tools spit out. Anyone who&#8217;s wrestled with AI-generated code knows it&#8217;s not exactly plug-and-play.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The bottom line? These tools change how we work, not whether we&#8217;re needed. Skilled, creative builders aren&#8217;t going anywhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The future: openness, community, and better storytelling</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>As the conversation wound down, the focus shifted to what really drives WordPress forward—community and storytelling.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ryan made a solid point: WordPress professionals need to share more of their &#8220;hidden&#8221; case studies and innovations. We&#8217;re not just talking about what&#8217;s happening in plugin repositories, but the real work happening in agencies and institutions worldwide. Those stories matter.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Both Birgit and Jonathan pushed for more global showcases, bar camps, and informal spaces where grassroots innovation can surface. Because that&#8217;s where the real magic happens—not in conference keynotes, but in the trenches where people are solving actual problems.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Conclusion</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The panel&#8217;s take? WordPress is agile, dynamic, and very much alive. With ongoing improvements, strong community engagement, and thoughtful AI integration, the platform looks ready to keep powering the web for the next generation—and beyond.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not bad for a 22-year-old platform that some people keep writing off.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Resources: </h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4BGaP5aNuA\">Video on YouTube</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://react.dev/\">React</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://vite.dev/\">Vite</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/themes/\">Developer Handbook > Themes</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/\">Developer Handbook > Block Editor</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.com/blog/2025/05/07/custom-block-styles/\">Mastering Custom Block Styles in WordPress: 6 Methods for Theme and Plugin Developers</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://home.cern/news/announcement/computing/wordpress-now-available-cern-websites\">WordPress now available for CERN websites</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/\">Developer Handbook > REST API</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.wpgraphql.com/\">GraphQL API for WordPress</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://remotedatablocks.com/\">Remote Data Blocks</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/ai/2025/07/17/ai-building-blocks/\">AI Building Blocks for WordPress</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/showcase/\">WordPress Showcase </a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image alignfull size-large\"><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/showcase/\" rel=\" noreferrer noopener\" target=\"_blank\"><img alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-41854\" height=\"357\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Screenshot-2025-09-11-at-14.56.48.png?resize=652%2C357&#038;ssl=1\" width=\"652\" /></a><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Browse the <strong><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/showcase/\">WordPress Showcase</a></strong></figcaption></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 11 Sep 2025 12:41:16 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19:\"Gutenberg Changelog\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:44;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:93:\"Open Channels FM: The Changing Face of the WordPress Media Landscape and Its Impact on Brands\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109490\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:100:\"https://openchannels.fm/the-changing-face-of-the-wordpress-media-landscape-and-its-impact-on-brands/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:210:\"In this episode, Rae Morey and Adam Weeks dissect the intricate WordPress media landscape, discussing content types, monetization strategies, and effective marketing approaches for creators and companies alike.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 11 Sep 2025 08:22:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:45;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:24:\"Matt: On WP Product Talk\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149743\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/product-talk/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:476:\"<p>I had a great chat with <a href=\"https://www.mattcromwell.com/\">Matt Cromwell</a> and <a href=\"https://www.gravitykit.com/\">Zack Katz</a> on <a href=\"https://wpproducttalk.com/\">WP Product Talk</a> today, mostly about the intersection of AI and WordPress, give it a watch!</p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div></figure>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Sep 2025 20:59:16 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:46;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:96:\"WPTavern: #184 – Rachel Cherry and Alex Aspinall on the State of WordPress in Higher Education\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=199424\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:110:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/184-rachel-cherry-and-alex-aspinall-on-the-state-of-wordpress-in-higher-education\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:58321:\"<details>Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, the state of WordPress in higher education.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today we have Rachel Cherry and Alex Aspinall.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rachel is the founder of WP Campus, a nonprofit organization she launched a decade ago to support professionals using WordPress in higher education. Under her leadership, WP Campus has become a community hub, hosting conferences, and leading research projects tailored to the unique needs of its members. Currently, Rachel serves as the organization&#8217;s Director of Technology, and sits on its board of directors where she continues to drive innovative projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alex is part of the globally distributed team at Human Made, an established WordPress Enterprise Agency founded in 2011. At Human Made, Alex helps deliver large scale web platforms for major organizations, including names like Harvard, Standard Chartered and PlayStation. In recent years, Alex has developed a strong interest in how WordPress can uniquely serve the higher education sector, and he&#8217;s become especially passionate about exploring and supporting this use case.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>During the podcast, we get into the story behind WP Campus, which has for the past decade been empowering people who use WordPress in colleges and universities. We explore Human Made&#8217;s growing interest in the complexities of higher education projects, from large multi-site networks to the strict accessibility and governance requirements such projects increasingly require.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The heart of the conversation is the just released State of WordPress in Higher Education 2025 report. We dig into the reports key findings, such as the slow adoption of the block editor and full site editing, the challenges of managing hundreds of university websites with small teams, and why enterprise level tools are in such high demand.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you&#8217;re a WordPress professional, agency, educator, or are just curious about the unique needs and opportunities the higher education space offers, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Rachel Cherry and Alex Aspinall.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast today by two fabulous guests. I have Rachel Cherry and Alex Aspinall. Hello both. How are you doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:36] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> I&#8217;m lovely, Nathan. How are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Good, thank you. And Alex, you all right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:40] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> How are you doing? I&#8217;m great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you so much. So we&#8217;re going to be talking today about the higher ed space, the higher education space, and WordPress. Specifically about WP Campus. In order to establish both of your credentials in this space, I wonder if we could get a little biography from you both, maybe 30 seconds, something like that, just explaining who you are, where you work, what your connection is to WordPress and specifically WP Campus.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So let&#8217;s go with Rachel first, if you don&#8217;t mind.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:05] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Hi, yes. So I am the founder of WP Campus, which has been around 10 years as of last month, which is kind of wild. And so we are a nonprofit organisation that supports people that use WordPress in higher education. And we host conferences, we host research projects like the one we&#8217;re going to discuss today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So currently I am just one of a board of directors and I&#8217;m the director of technology specifically, but I was the lead for this project.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then by day I am the accessibility developer at the University of Rochester. And so I&#8217;ve worked in higher ed and other enterprise organisations for the last 18 years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you so much. That&#8217;s great. And Alex.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:46] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> I mean, I have way less credentials in terms of my WP Campus presence. I work for Human Made, which is an enterprise WordPress agency. We&#8217;ve been around since 2011, I think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We&#8217;re a globally distributed team, people across all continents. And we specialise in building larger scale web platforms for organisations such as Harvard, Standard Chartered, PlayStation, few other names I could throw in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also have an enterprise hosting solution too. We, probably about a year, two years ago started, well, I personally started becoming really interested in the higher education use case for WordPress. I think it&#8217;s really interesting. I think it&#8217;s quite unique. And that&#8217;s really why Rachel and I started speaking, I don&#8217;t know, maybe 18 months or so ago, and that led us to I guess this podcast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, thank you. So the podcast is going to be framed around a freely available resource, and it&#8217;s called The State of WordPress in Higher Education. I will link in the show notes rather than try to butcher a URL in an audio podcast. I&#8217;ll link in the show notes over at WP Tavern to that and you can freely download it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s billed as a research report in the year 2025. I confess, I don&#8217;t know if you did a 2024 version and beyond, but we&#8217;re going to concentrate on the 2025 version.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I guess some more preamble, I&#8217;m afraid, but I guess we probably should establish what WP Campus is. And I just want to be clear, we recently released an episode about WP Campus Connect, and so I just want to draw a distinction there. These two things are not the same thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I&#8217;m going to toss that one to Rachel. Will you just tell us what the endeavor is at WP Campus, why it was set up? What need is it trying to satisfy?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:22] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Yeah, so about 10 years ago I was working in higher education, building WordPress websites, and I wanted my own community. And I was going to a lot of WordCamps and no one was talking about the work that I was doing, the kind of work that I was doing. There wasn&#8217;t a space for my kind of work at camps at the time and so I started this organisation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so for the last 10 years we have worked to build a community of people, of like-minded people, that are using WordPress to support the mission of higher education. And we support each other with professional development, with resources, with connection, and every now and then some advocacy. Years ago we raised funds to do the audit of Gutenberg, accessibility audit to be more specific.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so because accessibility is very important in our space, and here was this editor coming round going to cause a lot of change, as it has, and there was this huge unknown of whether or not it was accessible. And that was a very big deal to our group. A lot of our group has policies and such. And so every now and then we do work like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This type of research is very important to our mission as well, to provide data, to provide insight to our community members and our institutions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think one of our kind of ideals that we stand on is that we want to give people data to inform their own decisions, kind of like with the editor audit. Like, we didn&#8217;t tell people it was inaccessible or accessible, we gave them data so that they can decide for themselves. And so this research, you know, is a big part of that as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s a lot going on in our community right now. And we wanted to pull out this data, and one of our objectives was to better understand the needs and challenges of people using WordPress in higher education.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Thank you for that, Rachel. I&#8217;m going to advise that everybody goes over to the following URL. In fact, pause the podcast right now. If you&#8217;re sitting at a computer or you&#8217;re on your phone, go to wpcampus.org and over there you&#8217;re going to be able to see more about the mission.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At the moment, the membership numbers are displayed on the website. Whether or not that&#8217;s true when you visit, I don&#8217;t know, but 1,763 members, 688 institutions. That is an impressive number, by the way. I mean, the membership is great, but the institutional count is utterly fabulous. That&#8217;s really impressive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the idea is to juxtapose WordPress and higher ed. We don&#8217;t really use that word in the UK too much. We just kind of generically call things, I think university, so I just want to clear that up. Does higher ed basically service the needs of anybody that&#8217;s left traditional school? So I don&#8217;t know, 18 plus who&#8217;s going through some degree program or something like that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:58] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Yes. Our mission is really to support kind of that, and I apologise, I can&#8217;t think of the general term. There&#8217;s a kind of a general term that we do use across, that&#8217;s more of a global, because higher ed is very specific to the United States in a lot of ways.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we do support kind of that further education. We do have a lot of UK institutions and universities that participate in the work that we do. I would say that our group is largely United States, a lot of UK, a lot of Canadians as well. But we do have folks from all around the world. So it&#8217;s really just that spirit of wanting to support that mission of education.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Over the years have had a lot of people, even in the kind of K through 12 or early education people, wanting to be involved. And a lot of the things that early education and higher, or later, education have in common, but they&#8217;re also very different. So we haven&#8217;t quite merged with the early education group in that way. But yes, we do support largely this kind of university, higher education context.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, thank you. Yeah, that clears that up. I mean, you&#8217;re really busy over there. You&#8217;ve got loads of, I mean, an awful lot going on. There&#8217;s a whole thing about governance. You&#8217;ve got a newsletter, you put on real world events as well as online based events, and a Slack community. And there&#8217;s just a lot going on. It seems like, I don&#8217;t know if this has taken over your life, but it seems like it could well have done.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:17] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> It did for a long time, and these days I have a lot more help. For a long time I was really the only director and then a few years back we did the work to implement more of a fleshed out kind of board of directors. And so I&#8217;m just a member of that board now. I am not the director in charge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, all of that, again, is freely available on the website. You can see who the current custodians of the project are.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So where does Human Made, Alex, where does Human Made fit into this piece of the puzzle? How, have you become involved?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:45] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, I guess it goes back to what I was saying a little bit before about, I was just personally really interested in the higher ed use case of WordPress, and started digging around into learning a bit more about what kind of projects people had on the go, and what kind of platforms were being built in the space. They&#8217;re diverse, they&#8217;re complicated, they&#8217;re multi-site, you know, interesting, I guess is why I started getting involved.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Human Made is one of the agencies that builds complex, larger projects, so there&#8217;s a fit there as well. So we started looking around the space, seeing who it might be interesting to talk to, just in terms of learning a bit more. Obviously Rachel and WP Campus. We started talking informally about just the experience of being in WordPress in higher education.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think the first thing we collaborated on over a year ago now was we did an online conference in the run up to WP Campus&#8217; IRL conference a couple of weeks later. And then after that we enjoyed working together, we thought there was a lot more material we could work on, and this research project, I suppose was the biggest idea that came out of those discussions following that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:52] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. So I&#8217;ve downloaded the report and I&#8217;ve had a thorough look through it. There&#8217;s an awful lot in here actually. It is available, like I said, I&#8217;ll link to it in the show notes. However, I have to say, it&#8217;s a very graphical thing that we&#8217;re going to be talking about. There&#8217;s loads of charts kind of explaining the percentages in many cases of one thing versus another. So you will probably get more out of this podcast if you have downloaded it, and had a little peruse.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It doesn&#8217;t really matter who wants to take this, but I&#8217;m going to ask one of you to sort of explain what are some of the curious findings that you&#8217;ve got? Maybe the one, two, or three top level items that you think might be of great interest, and then we can maybe dig into the weeds of those particular things. So anything that your intuition suggests as something our audience might be interested in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:32] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> I&#8217;ll start with like my key takeaways, which are very broad, and then dive into a few of the data points. But my two key takeaways that I reported on was that our higher ed teams need more resources, and a way to share more resources, and that higher education needs more enterprise features in the WordPress product. Those were kind of my two, like looking at the data, my two takeaways. And at our report presentation that we had recently, we talked about that with folks in the community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But some of the really interesting questions that we asked were around usage of the block editor and full site editing. And so nothing super surprising. But let me pull up that particular chart really quick.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we asked folks, how fully have you adopted the block editor and full site editing? And only 40% of the respondents are using it on all of their sites. And there was a range there. Like we asked, are you using it on all of them? Are you using it on like most of them? Alex touched on this earlier, higher ed is a very interesting space, and the thing that I, people used to hear me say frequently was that WordPress and higher ed is WordPress in the enterprise on a budget. And what that usually means is a lot of under-resourced teams having to use WordPress to solve these large scale enterprise, high user environments.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What comes out of that is very creative, very custom, very interesting, complex solutions. This is kind of tying back to my takeaway of people need more resources and they need ways to share them. Because something that is also interesting in our space is how much custom work there is. How much people are solving the same problems, but they&#8217;re solving them on their own, and they don&#8217;t have a way to really share them. It takes a lot of energy to like maintain a public plugin that gets used around. And so because these plugins are usually so custom that creates this whole challenge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So anyway, back to the block editor. So when you&#8217;re trying to introduce new functionality in these complex enterprise environments, it can take a while. Higher ed is usually, it&#8217;s usually a pretty slow train of adoption, and there are reasons. And a big reason for that is resources. And you&#8217;re not just going to turn around and add the block editor on because you&#8217;re probably managing like 300 websites, and you can&#8217;t just change the editing experience without changing all of your training materials, and without changing your governance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yeah, so there&#8217;s context to why, and there&#8217;s lots of reasons. There&#8217;s other reasons that we don&#8217;t really dive into in these numbers, but there&#8217;s context that goes into why only 40% are actually using it on all their sites, even though Gutenberg came out in 2019.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I just ask you a quick question? You said something which took my breath away there. You said these people are managing probably 300 websites. I didn&#8217;t see that in the report anyway, and that seems like a really surprising number. How does that map to an institution? Is it because there&#8217;s a website for, I don&#8217;t know, the geography department, and then there&#8217;s another one for the sociology department? Is that what&#8217;s going on there? Because 300 seems like, well, I mean you could run your entire agency and not have 300 websites under your custodianship. So what&#8217;s going on there? You dropped that number and I was really surprised by it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:01] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Yes, in higher ed, there is a website for everything. And there is the notion of, if you&#8217;re familiar with domain of one&#8217;s own, which is a concept actually introduced in, or invented in, higher education in the States. And what it really means in our context is that people will set up WordPress multi-sites and then let people create their own sites on it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And they&#8217;re largely blogs, like a faculty member&#8217;s blog or a research lab&#8217;s blog. But it&#8217;s a way to allow the sharing and the spreading of information and research in higher ed with kind of a low service effort.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So like you can log on and you have like two template choices or two theme choices, and then you&#8217;re responsible for kind of managing a site on there. And then they try to, you know, build this domain in a way that&#8217;s kind of reusable code and plugins, like you do in WordPress. So yeah, you can get a lot of sites going.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s absolutely fascinating. I hadn&#8217;t really thought about it as, well, for example, if I go to a university website here and I end up at the Department of Geography, I&#8217;m kind of thinking it&#8217;s the same website, but I imagine, you&#8217;re right, it&#8217;s a whole different team of staff that are logging in and doing the geography stuff than they would be elsewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, so that&#8217;s curious. Right, back to the points that you mentioned, the resources. When you say that universities, I&#8217;m just going to use the word university, when you say that these institutions have limited resources, it kind of feels like the funding model in the US is very different to one that we have in the UK, and possibly different parts of the world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it always feels as if the US institutions probably have more money, but I&#8217;m probably thinking of things like the Ivy League universities where the fees are very high, but that probably doesn&#8217;t map all over the place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when you say resources, are you talking about cash, them being strapped for cash, or are you talking about human beings? You know, there&#8217;s not enough boots on the ground, if you like, or maybe it&#8217;s a confection of both.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:50] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Probably both, but largely headcount. I mean every university or institution&#8217;s different and some might actually be more cash strapped than others. But it&#8217;s largely a headcount. It&#8217;s largely the fact that in a lot of these institutions, you&#8217;ll have a web team of like three people managing 300 websites. And what that means, how they have to kind of manage how they spend their time and what they do with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so it&#8217;s a bit of both. There&#8217;s less human beings than there might be in the corporate space, but also they&#8217;re probably fairly strapped for cash.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then moving onto the block editor, I&#8217;ll come to you in a second, Alex, if that&#8217;s all right. But staying with Rachel for a moment. I&#8217;m looking at the chart now, 40% adoption of the block editor entirely, using them on all the websites, so point four, 40%. Then we drop down to 23% using it on some of them. 19% using on most, and then the last one really of interest here is 16% who are not using the block editor at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Has that adoption just sort of slowly ramped up, because 40% in higher ed feels like, to me, it doesn&#8217;t seem like a bad number in all honesty. I know that in the real world probably it is higher adoption than that, but I&#8217;m guessing that there are many more constraints on universities just switching out to the block editor. So is that number slowly but inexorably rising? It feels like it&#8217;s going in the right direction, but with the caveats that it has to happen slowly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:11] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> We don&#8217;t have data from the last, you know, four or five years to truly answer that question. But the vibe, or the sentiment, in our space is that, yes, it&#8217;s been slowly increasing. And part of that is just people, you know, there&#8217;s lots of factors, right? There&#8217;s people waiting for maturity. They&#8217;re waiting for it to grow more before they adopt. Or because of said resource discussion, people are waiting for the next redesign, for example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In our space, I think we even asked, how often do you redesign? Is one of the questions that we asked in our survey. I think it&#8217;s on average like every three years or so, three to five years, something like that. And so people in our space tend to wait for that to really implement large scale changes because it&#8217;s just easier to do it then than it is, you&#8217;re already doing a bunch of work, you might as well do it then. And so that&#8217;s another factor involved.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, there&#8217;s a little corollary to the chart that I&#8217;ve just described, underneath it, where the question was asked, how long did you wait before implementing the block editor? And basically the data skews towards, we&#8217;re trying to wait as long as possible. You know, more than two years is 35%. So it feels like, because of the nature of the audience, and I guess accessibility is a really crucial part of this, you&#8217;ve got to put the brakes on. You can&#8217;t be all that agile in the same way that maybe a corporate would, because you&#8217;ve got lots of stakeholders, lots of editorial teams that need updating and so on and so forth. So that&#8217;s kind of interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then I know that you didn&#8217;t mention this, Rachel, but it&#8217;s tantalizingly underneath the question that has just been mentioned. We move on to full site editing and it feels like, whoa, the brakes are really on for that. 62% of respondents said that they&#8217;re not using full site editing at all, and the numbers are kind of into low single figures where they&#8217;re describing whether or not they&#8217;re using it on all their sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the block editor, in terms of content creation is on the rise, but it would appear that full site editing, the ability to, you know, modify themes and customise that kind of thing inside of WordPress, not so much. It feels like the breaks are really on there, probably as a result of the resources that you mentioned earlier.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:15] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> It&#8217;s probably following the same trajectory. Full site editing is newer and it will grow with time. But I think with full site editing, it&#8217;s very similar concerns to the block editor, but it&#8217;s more about governance and control. When you do set up these WordPress websites where you do have a lot of governance over accessibility or over branding, it&#8217;s really scary.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The full site editing without fully understanding what it does, and how you can control it and set boundaries, there&#8217;s that concern about governance of, we don&#8217;t actually want people using our websites to be able to customise the site. We want a lot of control over that, most of the time, not everyone, but most people. Because in our space, a lot of the users that are coming in and kind of admining their site, or editing their site, are not trained web professionals. They are biology professor who&#8217;s kind of doing job as needed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so we want them to have flexibility to go in and publish content. We want them to be able to share their research, share their information, but we don&#8217;t want them to be able to have free reign to kind of break our governance rules, and potentially create risk to our brand or to our accessibility and things like that. And so the full site editing, there&#8217;s a lot of people that are kind of hesitant and being patient for the full site editing implementation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you for that. So we&#8217;ve got a picture then of how WordPress is deployed. It seems like it&#8217;s the CMS of choice over in the education, higher ed landscape anyway.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So moving over to Alex, I&#8217;m talking more about the implementation of this now. Presumably agencies such as yourself, Human Made, you are getting requests from these institutions to build these websites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>How does that process work? Do you generally tend to work with like the web team over there and you, you know, backwards and forwards with them? And then the bit that I&#8217;m most curious about, talking about what Rachel just said, how on earth do you get these people so that they can use the website that you&#8217;ve built? Because, in many institutions it may be one or two people have got their hands on this, but it sounds like there may be several hundred people who need to access the WordPress website. So training.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s two parts to that question really. How are you interfacing in terms of building the things when you are approached by these institutions? And then how do you get to hand it off and provide a good level of support and training to them?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:37] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s a good question. I think the main back and forth we have would be with, typically the web team of course, as you guessed there. I think each institution is set up differently. I think Rachel probably could testify to the fact that, you know, the challenges and benefits of being set up one way is not mirrored and how it&#8217;s done elsewhere. So I do think agencies generally have to be flexible, and work within the parameters that they&#8217;re asked to, you know, that&#8217;s kind of our job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think there are also, particularly with the biggest implementations in higher ed, there&#8217;s often other agencies involved or other specialists involved as well. You might be working with someone, you know, we might be bringing design and platform expertise and you might be working with someone that&#8217;s looking after the marketing and the wider brand of the university as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think there&#8217;s quite a lot of collaboration indeed, like the amount of time I&#8217;ve spent within higher ed, I think collaboration is a really big theme, and I think that the successful projects that we see getting delivered are very collaborative in nature.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then yeah, in terms of training and handover, I imagine on the ground in the universities in question, they have a bigger challenge than perhaps we do, because we&#8217;ll be handing it over to a smaller percentage ultimately of the wider institution. We don&#8217;t run 300 separate training sessions or anything like that. We provide detailed documentation, videos, follow up sessions, and we make sure that the team that are receiving the product are fully versed in it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think a lot of the time those people are. I think it&#8217;s handing it over to the editors that then the work will have to be done on a one-to-one basis in terms of what they&#8217;re allowed to do, going back to the FSE point. Not everyone can edit everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of curious because when I see a website for, again, I&#8217;m going to use the word university. When I see the website for university, I&#8217;m just seeing this kind of brochure site, really. In other words, here&#8217;s the university, look at all the magical things that we do. But my daughter has just been at university, and there&#8217;s so much more to it than that. So there&#8217;s like this portal where my daughter goes, logs in, and now the expectation is that much of the work will be carried out in that format. You know, you&#8217;ll submit content, there will be lesson plans and all of that kind of thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So essentially the question is leading me up to, what kind of things are being built into this website apart from the public facing bit, which we might call a prospectus, really? You&#8217;ve got this online prospectus, the world can see it, we can marvel at how great the university is, but it seems like there&#8217;s a heck of a lot more. Each department has its own stuff. Presumably the students, increasingly being expected to log in, especially post COVID, I imagine as well. So again, that one probably to Alex. What kind of curious things are built inside these WordPress websites, LMSs, brochure sites, and so on?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:10] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, I mean, no, you listed off a lot of the options there really. I mean, the main three or four pages you might think of as being the university site are very much that, just the brochure. But there&#8217;s all kinds of different requirements for different departments. We&#8217;ll have different kinds of products that they want to build in there. You&#8217;ve got archives of hundreds and thousands of different reports and pieces of information from the past that will be needed to be upheld.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We rebuilt Harvard Gazette, which is, you know, obviously part of the wider infrastructure at Harvard. So that&#8217;s a massive publishing site. That&#8217;s essentially the same as any magazine or newspaper would have. It&#8217;s what it is. As you say, the student logins, all the complexities of multi-site. Rachel, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve probably got a list longer than that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:53] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> It&#8217;s a lot, right? In my role as an accessibility professional, do a lot of governance work and it&#8217;s trying to tie together all these different types because there&#8217;s WordPress at my university, but there&#8217;s tons of other stuff. There&#8217;s front end brochure websites, and there&#8217;s research lab sites, and there&#8217;s marketing websites, and then there&#8217;s all the academic focused, as Alex mentioned a few. There&#8217;s a lot of web applications. There&#8217;s a lot of people doing a lot of different types of content in different ways. And how does that all tie together?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talk a lot about things like data sharing and a lot of the work that we do is also just trying to keep all this content in sync and trying to not have duplicates or not have outdated content, things like that. So when we talk about governance is like a big word that means a lot of things to different people. But a lot of it is really just kind of managing quality and the expectations of how websites are managed and how our mission as an institution is kind of presented to the world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s interesting, Nathan, that you say, like to you, it&#8217;s like you just see this brochure site, and that&#8217;s a common conversation about kind of the challenges of enterprise. We have all this internal knowledge and we also have, you know, there&#8217;s a funny common conversation in universities about acronyms. We have all this internal terminology that we use, but does that come across to the end user? Does the work that we do translate? And it&#8217;s a complicated question to solve.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m kind of curious as to whether or not WordPress can service the needs of the entire IT department, if you like, within a higher ed institution. So I&#8217;m imagining that the legacy is that there&#8217;s many, many pieces of software that are being used throughout the university. You know, there may be some sort of portal where people log in and check in that they&#8217;re actually at work. There may be other things where people log their essays that they supply to their tutors and things like that. Plus then there&#8217;s the brochure on the front end.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m curious as to whether or not WordPress in the future can handle most of those, and whether there&#8217;s an appetite from the higher ed institutions to have everything in one platform. They may see that as, you know, maybe that presents an Achilles heel to them. If there&#8217;s one systemic failure, then the whole thing goes down. But I&#8217;m curious as to whether or not WP Campus is trying to pitch WordPress as the answer to all the things, or is it a much more limited subset of things? You know, it&#8217;s the website, and it&#8217;s the LMS and that kind of thing. So that&#8217;s more of a kind of roadmap question, whether you&#8217;re trying to push WordPress as being the answer to everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:20] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> As an organisation, we don&#8217;t really push for WordPress to be used. It&#8217;s not really our mission. That&#8217;s not how we think or how we work. It&#8217;s really more just to support people that have, that are using it, and to help each other in our roles.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>To answer your broader question, I mean I kind of, it depends. Can WordPress be used for all these things? Sure. I&#8217;m sure you could finagle it to do a lot of things. Should it do all those things? Probably not. Not in its current state, no. It, in and of itself, is a database with programming and you can get it to do all kinds of things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, there was one of the questions which I&#8217;ve just refound and it was, what challenges do you face with the WordPress plugin ecosystem? And bloat was one of the things that was mentioned. So yeah, this is specifically to do with WordPress plugins. It&#8217;s not WordPress Core. I thought that was kind of curious.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then in second place, just by a whisker, was accessibility requirements as well. And you&#8217;ve touched on accessibility a lot, Rachel. You&#8217;ve mentioned the word tangentially, and obviously that&#8217;s your kind of area of expertise.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m guessing, but I&#8217;m not sure for certain, does the US compel certain things to be done in certain ways? You know, if you&#8217;re a university and you launch a website, does it have to comply with things? And do those things map across the globe? I know that we&#8217;ve got the European Accessibility Act, which just dropped earlier this year. So the question is pretty broad, but just tell us about the accessibility requirements and how stringent they are in higher ed as compared to just, I don&#8217;t know, if I&#8217;ve got a brochure site online selling widgets into the community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:51] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> So unfortunately the US does not have as strong accessibility laws as Europe does, or many countries in Europe, like the UK and others. We do have some though, and we do have something called section 508, which basically means that if you receive federal funding or federal service, you do have to meet certain accessibility requirements.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so universities in the US largely fall under that. Not always. Universities are probably the only real kind of ecosystem in the US that does have more accessibility rules than other industries like general business. And so that&#8217;s why we did that accessibility audit of Gutenberg to help support our community in that time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so it is very important, accessibility is very important. And it kind of touches on something that I said earlier about, a lot of universities in the US especially build custom plugins because they have to meet accessibility guidelines and it&#8217;s really challenging sometimes to find general use plugins available in the ecosystem that meet those guidelines. And so a lot of teams just kind of build their own stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so I would say that those top two challenges, when it comes to bloat and accessibility are really, like that was not surprising in any way. That is the common struggle. It&#8217;s finding plugins that meet our accessibility requirements, especially with the front end. And then having plugins that do a lot of functionality that people don&#8217;t need. And so I think a lot of these times will lend people to kind of build their own plugins.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They won&#8217;t rebuild like complicated plugins, any kind of administrative plugins or like form builders and things like that. Like, people largely will use plugins from the ecosystem. But there&#8217;s a lot of custom functionality in the work that we do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So once again, I think the common theme is it&#8217;s complex, and because of that complexity, there&#8217;s all kinds of interesting challenges. And so plugins are hard to kind of maintain. It feels like, I hear a lot of people expressing to me, you know, how often they have to kind of update them and keep them up to date, and manage and do all that. And so it&#8217;s not enough to stop people from using WordPress, like they&#8217;re using it, but having better solutions for some of these challenges would be an example of kind of supporting these higher ed institutions using WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you. Alex, back to you. A question around just higher ed in general, is this like an area which Human Made is drilling down on? Is this an endeavor that you are trying to grow the pie, if you like? There&#8217;s thousands, I would imagine, maybe tens of thousands of institutions which come under the banner of higher ed. And at the moment, I don&#8217;t know what percentage of them are using WordPress. If we were to ask every single one of them, I would imagine it&#8217;s a significant percentage.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the idea of WP Campus, I guess, is to have a central place where people can go and learn about it. And Human Made being involved, presumably there&#8217;s some advantage to you as an enterprise agency. The question basically boils down to, is this an area that you are going to be working on, pitching towards, trying to grow in the near future?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:55] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, for sure. I think like I said at the start, we&#8217;re generally the kind of agency who works on larger platforms, maybe more complicated platforms. And I think we&#8217;re interested in, you know, a broad range of industries. Probably higher ed is one of four or five, probably publishing, finance, enterprise generally, entertainment, higher ed. I think those industries tend to provide very interesting use cases for WordPress. We&#8217;re interested in all of them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think we&#8217;ve seen, in the last couple of years, a lot of interesting higher ed projects being worked on by us and obviously by lots and lots of other people. And yeah, like we&#8217;re definitely part of that world, and really interested in it and, you know, yeah, definitely keen to continue being part of it, a hundred percent.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of interesting, towards the bottom of the survey, so right near the bottom, probably nine tenths of the way through, there&#8217;s a whole series of kind of roadmap questions, if you like, things about the future of WordPress. And the fairly, I don&#8217;t know, blunt question, let&#8217;s put it that way, because it could have gone in the other direction it turns out, it&#8217;s hopefully gone in the right direction, but the question was asked, would you move to another CMS if you had time and resources?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And gosh, that could go the wrong way. The answer was a strong 49% no. Which, when you say it like that you think, hang on, only half of the people wouldn&#8217;t move. But then you ask, then the other bit was only 23% are looking to move at all, and 28% are unknown. So really you&#8217;re up into the sort of seventies really, who either are not sure or want to stick around.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That seems like an amazing statistic to me. And obviously, Human Made have kind of put their flag in the ground in higher ed, WP Campus, the same. It feels like you&#8217;ve got quite a lot of runway with these institutions in the future. Unless things go horribly wrong within WordPress, it looks like you&#8217;ve got an audience long into the future.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:43] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> I think the report offers a really positive view of WordPress. As a technology choice, I think on the whole, most people are saying it was delivering what they needed it to. I can&#8217;t remember if it&#8217;s 70, 75%, something like that, it was said that it was either meeting or exceeding their expectations, which I think is a large number. Again, it&#8217;s not like 90, but if you think about the amount of ways you can complain about software, particularly people that know a lot about the software, I think 75% is pretty good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And yeah, you&#8217;re right, whilst people are perhaps saying, oh, they&#8217;re looking around or they&#8217;re always considering alternatives, I think we&#8217;ve seen repeatedly that the platform, its security credentials, its extensibility, some of the core features, are all spoken about really, really favorably from the people that responded to the survey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think really we saw a passionate group of people responding to a technology they know a lot about. There are a lot of ways it could improve, we all know that, and the people that completed the survey know that as well, and they&#8217;ve, you know, they weren&#8217;t shy about listing them out. But I think you&#8217;re right, overall, the level of satisfaction is good, and I think with further adoption and the adoption of newer features, I think that that satisfaction should continue to grow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, one of the things I was actually kind of wanting to ask Rachel actually was back to the point about FSE earlier on. I actually think WordPress needs to do a much better job of marketing itself, particularly around newer features, and particularly perhaps at the enterprise level, or where there&#8217;s complex use cases, or where a lot of the users aren&#8217;t developers. The benefits of FSE, for example, are numerous. And we&#8217;ve seen clients and indeed we&#8217;ve used it ourselves, and the people using it really like it, and I think that&#8217;s reflected in the report as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I was going to ask Rachel, as well as the other examples of why adoption might have been slow in higher ed, do you think that there&#8217;s actually a case for people in, maybe agencies, maybe WordPress Core doing a better job of the selling and the pitching? Because I actually believe that there are worse solutions that do a better job of convincing people that they should work in a certain way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:51] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> I think there&#8217;s always room for more marketing and kind of communication about what&#8217;s going on, and there&#8217;s always improvement for that. And I do feel like Core could do more towards the enterprise ecosystem as well. That, you know, I don&#8217;t know what their primary use case that they&#8217;re focusing on is. But I would be surprised to find out that enterprise is higher up on that list. And so paying attention to our community and having open conversations with them, and there has been some efforts at that. There&#8217;s not like a non amount of effort on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But yeah there&#8217;s, I think a good way to kind of describe how a lot of our community works is just kind of, it&#8217;s cautiously optimistic, but cautious. And having to manage risk and having to manage their time and energy, and so they&#8217;re not going to jump into anything. They&#8217;re going to do a lot of research. They&#8217;re going to try to find out who else is doing it, and is it working well for them?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s a lot of, we do a lot of case studies and try to encourage our community to share about the work they&#8217;re doing. Because really that goes a long way too. If a university sees another university using full site editing and that it&#8217;s successful, then that goes a long way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And when you have an absence of that, when you have an absence of examples, then it&#8217;s a struggle, right? Because our environment is so complex that an article about full site editing and what it can do doesn&#8217;t really go super far. We need to understand, not just what it does, but the long-term implications. Because once we implement it, that&#8217;s it. It&#8217;s very hard to back up, especially in our, these 300 website multi-site instances where we&#8217;ve got to train people and do all these things. We can&#8217;t rush into it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s a lot of cautious waiting and seeing. So the more that universities can share about how they&#8217;re using the tools and how it&#8217;s working for them, and what&#8217;s not working for them. Being genuine in the reality of what we&#8217;re doing goes a long way. So there&#8217;s pros and cons, like, here&#8217;s how it worked, here&#8217;s the roadblocks we hit, here&#8217;s how it could be better. Having those kinds of conversations can really go a long way towards adoption.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I have a few things to add to this, and the first one would be that my expectation when a survey is put out is, broadly speaking, the expectation is that negativity is going to be the thing driving them to the survey. And that&#8217;s not what you find here. People who&#8217;ve got an axe to grind are frequently more likely to open up a survey and grind the axe, and that isn&#8217;t the case here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, it&#8217;s remarkably sanguine. Everybody seems entirely optimistic. And even the data which may be not quite as favorable, is not unfavorable. It&#8217;s just maybe not as shiny as it could have been.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then I&#8217;m looking at the second question here about what the favorite things are and it&#8217;s all the stuff that we lean into all the time. The extensibility, the fact that it&#8217;s free, otherwise known as cost, the fact that it&#8217;s multi-site capable, the fact that there&#8217;s plugins and what have you that you can extend it with.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the editing experience, so we&#8217;re talking about full site editing, I guess there as well as the editor, is low on the list of priorities, which is quite interesting. Only 36% of respondents thought that that was their priority.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then talking to the broader, I don&#8217;t know, the marketing piece, I think WordPress as a whole, it is really difficult to market something to the entire world. And that&#8217;s what WordPress is. So for the, like the Core community and things like that, to try and figure out where to put their best efforts, you know, how to convince people that WordPress is the solution for them, is really difficult, because it&#8217;s everybody. It&#8217;s literally anybody who might want a website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so I think that&#8217;s where endeavors like WP Campus really pull out all the stops. You know, you are out there shouting loudly that this is the credible solution, if you&#8217;ve got a need for a website in the higher ed space. You are making it so that, I guess if we were to Google higher ed CMS, WordPress is going to come up fairly high. So you are growing that pie.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I guess the audience is fairly small, isn&#8217;t it? You know, at each institution, how many people are going to be making those searches? It&#8217;s not going to be the 300 people that you mentioned. It&#8217;s probably going to be the web team.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think you&#8217;re doing great work. You know, you&#8217;re definitely finding those people and the important decision makers are probably the people. that you need to find.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I keep coming back to the phrase, growing the pie. That&#8217;s what I think WP Campus is basically about. You know, of the 10,000 institutions out there that might use WordPress, it&#8217;s about making sure that a growing proportion of them know that it&#8217;s a credible alternative to whatever they&#8217;re using now. And from the numbers in the survey, it looks like once you&#8217;ve onboarded them, it&#8217;s easy to keep hold of them, which is pretty cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:21] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> For WP Campus as an organisation, we wanted to use the survey to really surface the needs. And so there&#8217;s questions in this survey that talk about what plugin needs exist.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, one of my takeaways from this survey is how WordPress does need more enterprise functionality. And that&#8217;s covered a lot in the questions about plugin functionality. There is a big need and a gap for a lot of enterprise functionality in the WordPress ecosystem and higher ed needs it. So if there are people out there wanting to build it, we are ready for it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, you know, I want to surface those needs to kind of help bring more resources to our community and to what they&#8217;re doing. And so anyone out there looking to help fill that gap, please check out the survey and I&#8217;m open to have a conversation at any time, and we&#8217;d love for you to join our Slack and ask us questions and get us involved.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, that&#8217;s an interesting call to action because you know, if you&#8217;ve got space in your calendar to build a new thing, you now have a brand new audience potentially, if you&#8217;ve not considered the higher education space, there&#8217;s a ton of data in this report which you can download. So maybe this is a whole new audience that you didn&#8217;t realise that you could tap into. Alex, was there anything, it sounded like you had something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:33] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, no, I was just going to echo really to what Rachel was saying there. I think the idea with this report was to, as Rachel said earlier on, provide data that has been missing. There&#8217;s no cynical play, it&#8217;s a collaborative report that&#8217;s designed to help other people understand how their peers are working, what their challenges are, how they&#8217;re trying to solve them, what kind of environment they&#8217;re doing it all in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a really fascinating area, as I said earlier on, and we are really excited to see it develop and help it develop. And, yeah, we will be certainly collaborating with WP Campus and Rachel going forward.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, so whether or not, it really doesn&#8217;t matter which bit of WordPress you are attached to, whether you&#8217;re a hosting company or a plugin or a theme developer or an agency, just building out websites, there really is a bit of this which will map to whatever it is that you are doing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The website URL I mentioned earlier, wpcampus.org is where you&#8217;re going to find this out. I presume that they&#8217;re somewhere, if I was to explore, I would probably find a contact form. But beyond that, let&#8217;s go to Rachel first, how could people reach out to you if they&#8217;re curious about what you&#8217;ve said to today? Where would they best find you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:36] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Yeah, so you can join our Slack, which is accessible from wpcampus.org. There is a Slack page and you fill out a form and you get an invite, and feel free to join and start some conversations. There is a contact form on wpcampus.org, and I do receive those emails along with other people in our organisation. So that&#8217;s another great way to get in touch with me as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you. And Alex, same question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:45:01] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Yeah, for us, obviously website, humanmade.com. There&#8217;s a contact form on there. But also Twitter and LinkedIn tend to be our main sort of points of contact for people getting in touch with us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Might also be worth flagging out, we&#8217;ve got a Word on the Future newsletter, which goes out once a month. You can sign up for that on the website. That generally has this kind of content, not always about higher education, but about the enterprise WordPress space in general. So that&#8217;s quite a nice touch point too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:45:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ll just mention before we finish off that the WP Campus site not only links to, you know, the bits and pieces that are going on right now, but there&#8217;s the blog and there&#8217;s also links to the events as well as the Slack channel and things like that, oh, and a newsletter. There&#8217;s a whole load of opportunities to keep in touch with what&#8217;s going on over there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, yeah, what I would also say is it&#8217;s very hard in an audio podcast to do justice to a report, which is primarily graphics. So please, if you&#8217;ve any curiosity around what we&#8217;ve been talking about, go and download that and you&#8217;ll be able to get the full detail of what we&#8217;ve been talking about. You&#8217;re going to find that on the Human Made website, and I will link to it in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, Rachel Cherry, Alex Aspinall, thank you so much for chatting to me today. Really appreciate it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:05] <strong>Alex Aspinall:</strong> Thanks for having us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:06] <strong>Rachel Cherry:</strong> Yes, thank you.</p>\n</div></details>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelmcherry/\">Rachel Cherry</a> and <a href=\"https://humanmade.com/who-we-are/alexaspinall/\">Alex Aspinall</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rachel is the founder of <a href=\"https://wpcampus.org/\">WP Campus</a>, a nonprofit organization she launched a decade ago to support professionals using WordPress in higher education. Under her leadership, WP Campus has become a community hub, hosting conferences and leading research projects tailored to the unique needs of its members. Currently, Rachel serves as the organization&#8217;s Director of Technology and sits on its board of directors, where she continues to drive innovative projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alex Aspinall is part of the globally distributed team at Human Made, an established enterprise WordPress agency founded in 2011. At Human Made, Alex helps deliver large-scale web platforms for major organizations, including names like Harvard, Standard Chartered, and PlayStation. In recent years, Alex has developed a strong interest in how WordPress can uniquely serve the higher education sector, and he’s become especially passionate about exploring and supporting this use case.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>During the podcast we get into the story behind WP Campus, which has, for the past decade, been empowering people who use WordPress in colleges and universities. We explore Human Made’s growing interest in the complexities of higher education projects, from large multisite networks to the strict accessibility and governance requirements such projects increasingly require.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The heart of the conversation is the just released ‘State of WordPress in Higher Education 2025’ report. We dig into the reports key findings such as the slow adoption of the block editor and full site editing, the challenges of managing hundreds of university websites with small web teams, and why enterprise-level tools are in such high demand.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you’re a WordPress professional, agency, educator, or are just curious about the unique needs and opportunities the higher education space offers, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpcampus.org/\">WP Campus</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p> <a href=\"https://humanmade.com/resources/the-state-of-wordpress-in-higher-education-research-report/\">The State of WordPress in Higher Education</a> report</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://humanmade.com/\">Human Made</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/\">Harvard Gazette</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpcampus.org/community-3/slack/\">WP Campus Slack</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://humanmade.com/word-on-the-future-a-wordpress-newsletter-by-human-made/\"> Word on the Future newsletter</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Sep 2025 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:47;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:85:\"Open Channels FM: Sustainability, Authenticity, and Building Habits with Daily Videos\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"https://openchannels.fm/?p=109487\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:90:\"https://openchannels.fm/sustainability-authenticity-and-building-habits-with-daily-videos/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:208:\"In this \"Publishing Flow\" episode, Mark Szymanski shares insights on his daily video journey, discussing inspiration, consistency, audience engagement, and the balance between authenticity and value creation.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 10 Sep 2025 11:04:26 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:48;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:17:\"Matt: Techmeme 20\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=149734\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:34:\"https://ma.tt/2025/09/techmeme-20/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:616:\"<p>It&#8217;s New Apple Stuff day, so the headlines are being dominated by that, but it&#8217;s worth taking a step back and paying homage to the site that has been the front page of tech news for two decades now, <a href=\"https://techmeme.com/\">Techmeme</a>. 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